Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Love justice podcast where we share insights behind real impact in the fight against human trafficking. Today I am joined by Love Justice's CEO and founder, John Molino to talk about the tension between injustice and God's sovereignty. We'll hear from John as he reflects on what he's learned over decades of confronting injustice up close and how seeing so much suffering and has shaped his understanding of God's sovereignty and love.
Welcome back to the Love justice podcast, John.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Thank you, Hannah. Glad to be here.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: So I think, you know, this is, I feel like the conversation we're about to have is, is really important and I think it's because over the years of even my time with you and working for you and working with Love justice, we talk a lot about we need to face up to injustice. We need to imagine it being the person that we love the most and talk about this broken hearted, hearted anointing.
And I think the question that comes out of that exercise in that practice is how can God be good in the midst of suffering or conflict or war, or fill in the blank.
And I've even heard you say, you know, like, the most compelling argument against God is, is the existence of suffering.
And I've seen you shepherd staff at Love justice around this topic for a long time and even me, even me, like having experienced injustice up close and personal by going to the red light district in India and coming back really wrecked. And I think all of the staff in some way or another are have that wrecking moment where we have to kind of intentionally choose back, choose to turn back towards God in the midst of the injustice work that we're, we're doing.
So I think to just start us off in this conversation, I just want to acknowledge like you've spent decades facing up to injustice up close and personal.
And you know, you've also talked about in your beginning days of Love justice that you spent a lot of time digging into scriptures.
I don't, I don't know if you have a theology degree, but I think the way that you've studied scripture could be compared to something like that.
And so I'd be curious, like, how has sustained exposure to suffering reshaped, not weakened your understanding of God's sovereignty and love over time?
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, when you're dealing with the world's greatest injustices and, or just injustice, there's situations where it can be really hard to believe that God is sovereign. You know, that he loves people, knows about their suffering and is able to do something about it. There Are situations in the world. They're all over the world and we know about them.
We just have to almost believe they're real. There are wars going on around the world today. There are people who are living in. Have been trafficking to scam centers in Myanmar. And if you just knowing those things and it's hard not to face those without saying, God, where are you in this? And so, but I mean, it is very. The scripture and facing up to injustice with God has definitely shaped who I am and I think love, justice. And in short, I've come to believe what the scriptures say, that God loves everyone and that no sparrow falls outside his care. That somehow and despite all appearances that God has every injustice under control somehow.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
I think that's like the next question that I, I have is we find. I'm going to skip a couple, John. We find that there's really no neat answer for the problem of suffering. You talk about, like scripture says, like, we believe what scripture says about this truth. But on the flip side, scripture says very little about the problem in, in terms of like explaining why there's the existence of suffering.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: I don't think you should skip a couple because it'll completely muffle all my answers because there will be stuff that, like, oh, had I known that, you know, I mean, like, oh, I'm going to put this in this question, you know, and then I'll forget to reference it and realize. So, sorry.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Yep, no problem. Okay, I'll skip it. I had that thought of like, oh, I know he does this, so I don't know. Yeah, but we'll end it.
John, in Loving Justice, a small group guide to fighting the world's grace and justices that you wrote, you say that we cannot be anyone's savior, that our choice is whether to join what God has already determined to do. How did you come to that conviction? And how has it protected you from both burnout and pride?
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, I had this situation very early in my time in Nepal where I was working with a deaf street child. And I had the thought, if I don't help this child, no one will. And I felt this sense of God's rebuke of God rebuking me and saying, no, I care for this child more than you do. I created him. I love him.
And it kind of was an important moment for me towards realizing it's not my job to be anyone's savior. My choice is rather whether I want to be a part of what God is both determined to and capable of doing with or without me.
And so that's been a really important shift in my mindset that has allowed me to kind of shut down evenings and weekends and play with my kids while also retaining a steady, persevering dedication to our mission over a long time without burning out or becoming jaded or complacent. So, I mean, we've been blessed to take part in some really amazing impact.
The young me would have wanted to sort of revel in the self importance of it.
And I'm not sure I can recount all that God was doing in me and has done in me that has changed that.
You know, the scripture, that there is a scripture says he who has suffered in the body is done with sin.
That's a mystery to me how that happens. But I would say that part of how I became is by going through, you know, by suffering, you know, and being traumatized, carrying a burden and kind of learning it to set it down and in some ways being broken. Um, you know, I, I, I would never claim to be without pride, but I, I would say, like I can see real progress in myself moving to a point where I can say a lot of what it would have tempted me with Pride, you know, 20 years ago just doesn't anymore. Um, and a lot of the, a lot of temptation of fame and vanity that would have been very tempting to me 20 years ago.
To me now it just looks really hollow and empty and, and I'm really just so blessed to be able to serve God and impact lives in this community we have with other believers.
And it's just God has made it really clear to me how amazing the latter is and how pitiful and untempting the former is. You know, Augustine says one of his definitions of sin is loving will not make us happy. And the person who doesn't struggle with the sin, like you can think of a sin, Hannah, that you don't struggle with and you think of that, you see it as it truly is. You're not even tempted by it. You know, like, it's like, and I think, but for our own sins, we don't. We're loving what will not make us happy. We're believing lies about them. And of course I have sins like most people, but I would say that a lot of the pride and vanity that would attempt in me years ago has no luster for me. And the chance to make an impact in community sparkles with wonderfulness in my sight.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I also think too, you know, as, as people have come in and out of love, just working For Love justice with that temptation to have the savior mentality, I think we realize very quickly that we cannot, like, we cannot do it all and, you know, have gone in and out of, like, our own failed attempts at trying to do that and how it does lead to burnout. And I, as someone who's had the.
The joy of playing mafia with you and playing laser tag with you and doing all these, like, crazy joyful activities, like, I think you've really cultivated a culture at Love justice to say, like, yeah, we work hard within the confines of, like, our, our working days, and then we're going to play really hard and, and we're going to sabotage hard, and we're going to create those rhythms that I think will naturally resist the savior complex when it comes to injustice work.
Yeah, and. And I really appreciate a lot what you said about pride too, and, and just the temptations of that and how you've kind of, you know, the journey that you've taken with that over, over the years.
And kind of maybe connected to what we're talking about is also the, the role of prayer in God's sovereignty and the work of injustice. And I think there's a really deep paradox when it comes to prayer. Just this idea that God is sovereign, yet scripture tell us he responds to human action, specifically prayer.
How is that. How is wrestling with this paradox, what C.S. lewis calls the dignity of causality, shaped how you pray and also act and work in the face of injustice?
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a couple of these paradoxes around prayer, and one of them is like, if the thing is God's will, God's going to do it either way, so why pray? But somehow our prayer actually shapes God. And so I think that God's sovereignty is kind of the answer to that one, as I see it. But there's also the fact that, okay, God wants to save people, so he calls me, he nudges me to go and help.
What if I don't respond? And when those people reach the gates of eternity, is God going to say, well, I wanted to help you, but John wasn't faithful.
No. No way.
So ultimately, nothing that God's sovereignty means that.
I mean, it does depend on us, but ultimately God is despite sovereign. And so how to believe both of those things?
Our prayers and our actions are the same way, have causal power. They make a real difference. We can impact lives, and yet his sovereignty can't depend on our FAI faithfulness.
So Lewis said that purpose will be realized in different ways according to the actions, including the prayers of his creatures. So God is going to find a way if he's already know that I'm not going to be faithful and he's already called you to go save the people or whatever. So yeah, our Persians actually have causal power, but ultimately God's faithfulness does not depend on them.
And so there's no nonsense about, you know, being anyone's savior. What we get to do is be a part of what God is determined and capable to do with or without us.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think there comes a, like a sense of freedom in that, of, okay, we get to participate with God in this work in the ways that we are sensing he is inviting us into, but it ultimately does not depend on us if that, if that makes sense, like the final outcome. But the invitation is, do we want to be a part of that or do we not want to be a part of that?
And it probably far blesses us more than those are seeking to serve in terms of walking in obedience. And then, you know, it indirectly also impacts those who are seeking to serve. But it, you know, in the context of God's sovereignty, he would find a way to be faithful regardless of our faithfulness or like lack of faith. Faithfulness.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Do you have a thought there before
[00:12:10] Speaker B: I, you know what I'm thinking about the fact that like, a good way to put the problem of pain is that God lets his children do all kinds of things and get into all kinds of situations that I would never, I would be very careful to protect my sons from getting into that situation.
You know, and so that's almost like a succinct way of explaining the problem. It's like, whoa, I would never let, you know, let you know, my kids experience these things, but there are people who are experiencing those things and God supposedly loves them more than I love my children. We know that and we believe that. And so that's, I mean, that's not, that's just a new way of thinking about the problem that kind of occurred to me.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
I think what's, you know, let's say we're talking with someone who might not definitively believe that in the way that you just succinctly said, I don't know if how God could love the person that I love the most way more than, than I can.
And maybe for, you know, listeners who might be teetering around that, or they might have a little bit more doubt for, you know, their lived experiences. What would you, what would you encourage them with?
[00:13:28] Speaker B: I don't know if this is an encouragement to them. If this will be an encouragement to them. But I'll say, if God doesn't have an answer for why he allows people to go through the things that we see in the world, that is perfect. It has to be involved. Just like, okay, now I see it now, then he doesn't exist.
That's what I would say. But I believe he does exist. And I don't know what the answer is.
It's not given to me to know, but I. I nonetheless believe.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I wonder too, if, at least for me, what was kind of like transformative in my own journey with wrestling with God's sovereignty and injustice was almost a proper understanding of sin and, like, the impact that sin has on this world and, and really diving into, like, pain and suffering and free will and agency and sovereignty and. And it's, it's comp. Like, it's really complicated. And there's no clean, short, punchy answers to address all of those nuances and complexities.
And I think that's what's really hard about suffering in particular, is that there's no neat answer to the problem of pain and suffering, especially in the Bible, aside from, like, we know that it's connected to the sin of the fallen world.
Why do you think God withholds a clear explanation? And how does that refusal actually persevere faith rather than destroy it?
[00:15:17] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a parallel between the way God's not going to blame, you know, he's not going to say, oh, sorry that I meant to save you, but John wasn't faithful. But he also kind of has an obligation because a lot of the explanation of suffering is sin, and that's the reason for suffering. But ultimately I don't think God's going to point fingers there either and be like, sorry, you know, like. And ultimately like, he. He created the world.
You know, like, if I was a mother and I entrust my child to the care of someone who I know will abuse them, I'm responsible if I have that knowledge. And, you know, and that's the knowledge that God does have. And so, you know, for me, what really shifted my thinking about this was when I read the Brothers Karmatov. And in that, in that book, there's a story of Christian Alyosha talking with an atheist iv. And Ivan is talking about children suffering because that's the one where it's not sin. It's not. It's somebody. It's not. You can't say, although that's because of their sin, it's children. And he tells the story of this little girl that was just abused and witnessed all kinds of atrocities, and she suffocated, hiding under an outhouse while her family was massacred in front of her. And he says to Alyosha, imagine that you are God and that you can choose to create a world.
And afterwards there will be no suffering. Everyone will be happy. But this little girl's tears as she beats her little chest, that will never be answered for. It will never be requited. It will never be redeemed. Would you agree to be the author of such a universe? And Alyosha says, no.
And for me, that's about the extent of what. That's what I agree.
If God exists, he has to have an answer. But when I look at injustice in the world, that seems impossible. An answer to be able to. For God to be able to answer that.
I cannot conceive of the answer or how that could be.
But does that not know? I mean, that's the way in Job.
The way that God answers is by not answering. You know, he very intentionally does not answer. And he says, where were you and I created? And then he mentions all these different things. But there's a hint in that answer. There's a hint that he is God and we are not. And he is the creator of wonderful, unexpected things and we are not. So the not knowing seems to be a big part of the point of what God is doing in us. You know, there is. There is no proof in this world of God, but the evidence is very compelling. The scriptures say God has made Himself plain, yet there's this really distinct lack of direct evidence. We'd never see God with our five senses. There's no clear proof.
But one thing that I think it's helpful to is that she kind of shifted my mindset. If God is omnipresent, the normal state is that God is seen, that you can see Him.
But in a sense, we live in a part of existence where he hides himself and we don't see him. And the scriptures kind of say he hides Himself from those who test him, but reveals himself to those who seek him with all our heart. And faith is different than just direct knowledge. The angels behold the face of God, we're told, and we are to become something new. Sons of God who the Scriptures say will judge the angels.
But the sons of God are different than the angels. We're made righteous by faith in this place where God hides himself, this universe. And we're a little bit like the servants who learn to obey while the Master is away in a Sense that servant is better than the one who obeys when the Master is watching them like a hawk.
And the scriptures say that creation groans for the revelation of the sons of God, which is something new and unknown, not yet revealed. Going to be amazing. And it's ultimately what this universe is about.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that there's a lot, like, there's a lot in that response that I think could provoke a lot of reflection and a lot of curiosity.
And I think too, John, I'd be curious what you'd have to say to this because Scripture talks a lot about God being with us and, and just this presence and like nothing being able to, to separate the love that he has for us. Nothing can, can separate us. And I think when you are living on this side of eternity and in the world, there are gonna be all sorts of things that are gonna tempt you to believe otherwise.
And it's that, like, warfare, that warfare of like in our mind and in our thinking and, but also, you know, not disengaging by saying, okay, Scripture says God is. God is with us. Like, okay, he's with the people in Gaza. He's with the people in the red light districts. He's like. And declaring that truth, but also recognizing the reality of.
I don't know how he's with them.
We might not see how he is or how he's not, but we have books and stories and testimonies over decades. Corrie 10 Boom. The hiding place of how she endured the Holocaust. And it's just story after story of how she encountered God in the midst of that. I, I think just like drawing on testimonies from, from people who have experienced that before and also building faith and building trust to say, okay, Scripture says that God is with us. And there's a reality of like, we don't know how, and we don't know what he's doing or how he's moving in the midst of this, this current injustice.
Any thoughts there?
[00:21:09] Speaker B: I mean, where my mind goes to is like, I want to be the way that God is moving for the injustices that I see. And I'm called to be the way that he's moving to the injustices that I see. And I don't need to know the answer to what is he doing for all the injustices I don't see or can't imagine or know a little bit about. But yeah, I mean that I am clearly called, and we are clearly called as a church to fight injustice, to look for the least of these and see what we can do and when you do that, you don't sit there saying, I don't know what God is doing. Because you do know, because you are it.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think that's so good because even with my own like realizing of this issue for the very first time, it was like, you can never again say that you didn't know. And there was this idea of like, if it were me, if it were me, maybe because at that point in college, like I was the person I loved the most, like self centered, whatever sin and whatnot, like, would someone care enough to intervene if it were me? And, and just this idea of like, I think it's the Lord that really prompts and moves people to step into those places. And so you're, you're totally right. Like, I think an outworking of God's sovereignty is the invitation that we have to play in that outworking.
But we'll get to. I think we'll touch on that in a little bit. I think what I would love to hear from you on next is in the Loving justice study guide, and you kind of even alluded to this earlier, there are two groups who burn out in the face of injustice. And I think for people who have been in this work for a long time, that is the risk. The risk is burnout for, you know, fill in the blank reason though. But you say that there's specifically two groups. Those who conclude that God is not good and those who act as if the work depends entirely on them working themselves to the ground. Why are both errors so tempting? And how have you learned to live in the tension instead of collapsing from it?
[00:23:22] Speaker B: One thing I'd say is just kind of occurred to me, in some ways the two are the same. Because if you act, if you believe that the work depends entirely on you, then in a sense you're saying God does not have under control. And so it's like you don't believe that God is. How can he be good? And just so I would say it's really easy to conclude that God is not good simply because he's all if, you know, he's supposed to be all powerful and all loving and the world is full of grave injustice. That is not consistent with that in any way that we can explain or understand.
Simply that God allows things to happen to people that we would never allow to have happen to our children because we love them.
And so with this street kid that I was working with before, I really cared about him and I wanted to help him, but you know, I, I would could have concluded like, oh, I care about this person. Apparently God doesn't, because without me, this would never happen. You know, and that's. That's the road I started to go down.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: You know, like, and. And so.
But yeah, I mean, facing up to injustice is painful.
You know, it'll make us weep.
This. You know, it'll make us do something deeper than weep. You know, like, it'll give us every reason to even just despair.
And so to avoid that, you have to turn away. And I think that's what happens a lot of times with burnout.
So I've learned personally to live in that tension by believing God.
Believing God and knowing that it is not given to me to understand.
You know, I am not told the answer to the problem.
You know, so, you know, if even one sparrow falls outside his hair, he's not sovereign. And yet somehow, despite all appearances, we are told, and I believe that he is. And so I can face up to injustice and weep, but I also get to be a part of what God is doing to redeem it. And if I fail, which I will, God's got that under control without me.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah. You know what I'm also thinking, like, as I'm hearing you talk, John, is also. When we face up to injustice and we feel like that deep sadness and that deep grief, like, I think that's actually a reflection of God's heart for the situation as well.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: It is.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: And like, if you really believe that we are made in the image of God, like, I think that also is like, okay, you know, God, like, God doesn't want this either. You know, like, he doesn't desire this for, you know, the. The least of these. And it's. I think it's.
At that point there's. It's like a fork in the road. Like, you can either use that to fuel, like, okay, this is God's heart for these people, and I'm gonna step into it. I'm gonna go after it. We're gonna. We're gonna, you know, do it with him.
Or you kind of. You turn away, like you said. Like, it's actually just easier. And I think in the turning away, you're also rejecting God's heart for that situation as well. And it leaves you with that improper understanding of God's heart for the issue that then could give way to some of the other things that we've talked about of, like, okay, is God really, really good? And I think that emotional heartbreak. We talk about this all the time in love, justice, that brokenhearted anointing.
It's like, The. The wellspring of justice comes from.
From that.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah. God's heart is broken over injustice, and if we want to know him and know his love, we. We need to be. Let our heart be broken too. But. But it's. There's a.
Having your heart broken over injustice is better.
I want to say better is not quite the right word, you know, but I don't have quite. It's better in the ultimate sense than pleasure.
Pleasure is empty. Letting your heart be broken for justice is the best.
It fulfills your very purpose. It unites your heart with the heart behind the entire universe.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And I. I think, like, the tension of, you know, and you and I have talked about this, of, like, there are times where, you know, you want to read through the. There's an exercise that we have which is called the Greatest Injustice. And you read a script, and it's meant to facilitate a broken heart. And I'll be like, I don't want to do that.
I don't. I don't want to do that right now. And. And even myself feeling the tension of, like, it's. It's almost like, too much for me to bear. And so then it has me thinking about, like, okay, but what are the rhythms and the practices that you can implement where you can. You can do that? Like, what are the things that are gonna resurface you back up from that? Is it listening to a worship song? Is it listening to scripture? Is it listening to a testimony? Like, I just. It has me thinking about for myself practically of, like, okay, how can I. How can I engage with that more for all the reasons that we just talked about, while also not being completely pulled into despair. And I think there's, like, very tactical things, too. Not that that's always the answer, but just as a way to think about, you know, how can you do both? How can you dig down deep and then also allow the Lord to surface you back up, to use it in really powerful ways?
[00:28:42] Speaker B: I can tell you one of the ways that the Lord surfaces. You back up by doing something about it.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: By right and wrong. You know, when you do that, that. Then that's, you know, like. And that. That's ultimately, I think, what. What we're called to do to. To follow Christ and sacrificing out of love.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And that is. That's something that we get to, like, that's an opportunity that we get to gift people who want to be a part of this work. Like, by partnering with Love justice or praying for Love justice or advocating for love justice, sharing about it like that is. That is an action that facilitates that justice work. And that's, you know, the gift that we're able to give people who want to do something and then they get to decide, you know, is, is that, is this how I want the outworking of this to look like? That's, that's the invitation, I think, shifting gears a little bit, John, because it's, it's nice to talk about these things in, in theory.
And I want to get into, like, the practical outworkings of this specifically within the context of the work of love justice.
So my question for you is just how is a proper understanding of God's sovereignty shaped the way that love justice makes decisions? Specifically in moments where outcomes are uncertain, Maybe data is incomplete or only gives us part of the picture, or the cost of action is really high. Like how, like how does, how, how do you, how do you navigate that?
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Well, I'll say many of the decisions, maybe even nearly all the outcomes are uncertain. Data is incomplete, and they have enormous real world consequences. So, you know, Hannah, you know, we have a sign in our office that says the freedom of many depends on the work that we here do today.
And I believe that, you know, we intercept between 50 and 100 people every day.
And I know that my decisions have massive real world impact. That matters a lot.
But I don't carry it as a burden.
It would be too big for me to carry it as a burn if I did.
But it's still less a reason for pride if I allowed it to be. Even partly that for me, I think it would ruin me and I would ruin love justice. But what it is, is it's a blessing to be a part of.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
What practically and tangibly has helped you stay faithful over the long haul? I mean, John, you've been in this work for 20 years.
I know that it hasn't been easy for you guys. You have a long history of obstacles that you've had to overcome to get to this point, which I know you will say, like, the obstacles are nothing compared to that breakthrough blessing that's promised in scripture.
But what does practically intangibly help you stay faithful without resolving that mystery of suffering or surrendering compassion?
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Well, first, I don't know that I would claim to have stayed faithful. I fail all the time.
But I would say probably some tiny little ways I've been a little bit faithful. And when I have, God has blessed that, and he has been amazingly faithful. And so it feels really important to me that I'm aware of that. It feels like God needs me to know that, and I do know that.
And it also feels really important to me to have believed that God is sovereign over the injustices that we fight.
Because if I didn't, I would collapse under pride or the weight of the burden.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And is that like, you're reading scripture frequently? Like, what. What puts you in a place where you're not forgetting that or you're just like, you know, rep, like training your mind to just. That's what you go to when you are. Attempted to think that way.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: I mean, for me, I mean, reading scripture was really. Was really helpful. I had a lot of the years during when a lot of my thoughts around this were formed for forming where I had pretty strong, like, devotional habits that were. That really kind of cemented me in scripture. You know, we at this office, we've been just doing our devotions, reading one chapter a day. To me, that has really been awesome. I've loved it, you know, and it's been really encouraging for me.
I think, you know, praying, being in community, reading books, just. It's just about where we direct our attention. Direct your attention to the things that remind you of who God is. And who God is is about the end of that sentence, actually.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Piggybacking off of that really quick. And if they come to mind, like, are there any books that have been like, pretty formative in your thinking around this that if a listener was like, really intrigued by this conversation and they wanted to dig deeper, aside from obviously scripture, like, where would you point them?
[00:33:32] Speaker B: CS Lewis, definitely, you know, I don't know how much, but I. In my mind, all of CS Lewis's thoughts are mixed. So I don't know which book I got which idea from, but I would read everything by C.S. lewis. I would recommend everything to C.S. lewis. George MacDonald is another thinker who.
He's so grounded in the love of God, which has been really key for me. Um, and. And probably when it comes to this, I don't know if there's anyone besides those two in the scriptures that have really fundamentally shaped my. My thinking.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, John, we have, you know, we've. We've talked about a really big topic in about 30 minutes. Um, and I'm just curious, like, you know, if you hope people take away one thing from this conversation, what would it be?
[00:34:23] Speaker B: Well, I hope people can face up to injustice and go away and face up to injustice and learn to believe in God's loving sovereignty despite it.
Hannah, this morning in Our devotion. We happened to read Luke 6, which is the Sermon on the Plain.
We had just recently read the Sermon on the Mount, and I noticed something that I had never really seen before, that they both end with. With the parable of the House on the Sand. And the parable of the House on the sand is about those who hear these words of mine, but do not put them into practice.
And those words of. That he's referring to, if you assume what he's referring to is the Sermon on the Mountain, the Sermon on the Plain, those. If he means those things, those are really, really hard things. And it, like, has me, like, almost like my. Like, almost feeling like I was missing.
I've been missing that. That was the.
That's. Those two sermons are almost the central teaching of Jesus. They're the two known named sermons that exist in the New Testament. And so. And they are just like really hard things about the state of our heart. Not even having any anger or lust or, you know, like, when we give a party, don't invite your friend, but go out in the streets, invite the poor.
Somebody steals your coat or shirt, give him your coat, you know, give to anyone who asks you and do not expect to be paid back. You know, we in the. You were there, Hannah, this morning when. When Brad kind of brought in the analogy of the carjacking. You know, somebody tries to. To carjack your car. Are you really supposed to just give them the car and. And then walk home and then drive the other. Another car and bring that to him as well? You know, like, that's absurd. But it's also like, I think if you actually did do that, there are stories of people who did that. Like Les Miserables is a story about the bishop who does that. With Jean Valjean, it would be like that. And there's St. Francis has told, you know, like some of his accolades were robbed and he rebuked them and told them to go find them and give them more. And that's what they did. And then they became, you know, they joined and became followers of St. Francis. There's like this contagious love that I think can happen if we really believe actually, no, really actually are supposed to do those things.
And one of those hard, upside down things in those two sermons is this idea that blessed are those who weep, which, again, it's turning the world upside down. How is it in any way blessed? Weeping is like the maximum amount of sadness.
But I can tell you this because I have tried to face up to injustice and I have wept and I have asked God to take things away from me, to help others and to help those people. And God answered that he did take some things away, and he did do some things that were hard and hurt me. But I received in return blessings that so far outweighed what he took away that it's like nothing. He took away ashes and gave me things more precious than gold. And I don't even have words or the right metaphor because what I received from my ashes makes gold feel like ashes.
So, you know, God wants to give his love and himself to each of us. And I know that it's for me, too, that the sacrifices he asked for, they're things that seem so scary, but they are the blessings of a loving, gentle father who knows how to give eggs and not scorpions to his children. And he has prepared things for us so wonderful that creation is just groaning for the revelation of it.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: So.
Wow. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm. I. I don't know if this is a helpful thought, but I'm definitely tracking down the line of, like, the carjacking. And then, like, what do you do? Give them your second one. And it's there. There's something as crazy as this sounds, like there's something exciting in that. Of like, okay, God's got to, like, if I truly believe what the scriptures say about God, like, something is going to come out of this that is, you know, like, if is going to be crazy. And yeah, that can be really fearful or feel really irresponsible or like, you know, there's all these things of the. The world is going to tell you differently, like, what you're nuts. Like, then you're going to be out however much your cars are worth, like, where's that money going to come from? Or it's like this faith building of, like, I'm actually going to do what I believe God, like, calls us to do. And I'm going to expect that there's something that's going to come from that. And that makes me think of, you know, people who just. Even the testimony of someone who gave recently, like, choosing to believe the scripture of, like, the widow who gave everything she had and how she will be. Will be blessed. Like, there's something so faith stirring in that that, you know, I, I'm taking away from this conversation of, like, what do we. What happens when we do what scripture actually tells us to do, Even if it feels like the cost is really high and there's an excitement and a curiosity there that I doubt.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: I mean, I would want to make sure. Our listeners know we don't live like that. We don't follow the sermon at all. We know we're different, but we're. But. But I'd say, like, there are some ways where. Where we have.
We have done something, you know, some things and try to follow some. We've been a little bit faithful. But I'm so blown away as I process what has happened because of the things that I've given up for God. How he really did gives me back more than I get. It's been. I've been blessed amazingly. And it just has me, like you said, curious almost. And then, then seeing the sermon on the mountain, the serum on the. And. And just thinking what he really means it. He really means those things.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. And h. Yeah.
Why was that?
[00:40:24] Speaker B: I said, I don't know how you're going to tie a bow on it. On it all.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: Well, I had a thought and then I just lost it.
But it just. Yeah, I'm trusting that I was just supposed to lose that. So I think what I would say is this, John, and I want to bring it back to a quote that I thought was really encouraging that you included in the Loving justice small group guide, which little plug for that Love justice is going to be disseminating. And one of the. One of the quotes in there that I think is really cool to end with is that William Booth once said, I'm not waiting for a move of God. I am the move of God.
And what I want to say is, like, that's the heart of Love justice and like, from. From the programs from our stateside.
And that is what we are inviting people into. We're inviting people to be a move of God, Whether that is coming on staff with us, whether that is giving, whether that is praying, like all of those things are an invitation. And so I would be remiss to just not offer up the opportunity and. And the gift of being a part of Intercept Partners. Like that move of God is the heart of what intercept our Intercept Partner community does. They join Love justice in taking action for the vulnerable, trusting God's sovereignty while acting boldly to fight injustice.
So for anyone who's feeling like man, I'm feeling prompted and stirred to be a part of what Love justice is doing. This is how I want to walk out my obedience. This is how I want to do what scripture is telling me to do. I want to do it with Love Justice. I would encourage you to check out lovejustice NGO Intercept Partners. And John, just really thankful for the wisdom that you bring to these conversations, the excitement.
I really, really appreciate how you above, like, more so than Love Justice. Like, you're really calling people to, you know, do what scripture says and, like, to have a heart that is after God and after Jesus. I think that was the thought that I was thinking through earlier of, like, you know, we don't do this perfectly. And I think you have led our teams so well in that of, like, our. We're tempted to think, you know, act like the Pharisees. In fact, we are more like the Pharisees than anybody else, specifically people in working in nonprofit Christian ministry and, you know, doing all these things. And you're like, no, like, we. It's so tempting to be like the Pharisees. I think you've done such a lovely job of keeping us grounded in that truth. Of like, no, we haven't done it perfectly. And, like, we're still, you know, even now of, like, the carjacking. Like, that's a very real scenario for us. And I think you do such a great job of shepherding specifically the team in that, and I'm so excited for listeners to get glimpses of that shepherding in this format.
Thank you.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: We are grateful for the generous support of the Love justice community. Please consider joining our family of donors. Learn more at lovejustice ngo.
