Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Love Justice Podcast where.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: We hear from different voices who are joining us in the fight against modern day slavery.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Here's your host, Hannah Munn.
[00:00:13] Speaker C: Welcome to the Love Justice Podcast where we share the ideas behind Love Justice's impactful work through conversations about fighting the world's greatest injustices.
Today's episode is for anyone who wants to make a real impact on the lives of the least of these beyond just good intentions. If you've ever asked how to meet urgent needs without doing more harm than good, or how to live out Jesus's call to serve the least of these in a world overwhelmed by injustice, this conversation is for you. Our guest is Peter Greer, President and CEO of Hope International, a global Christ centered development organization serving across Africa, Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe. He's also the co author of influential books like Mission Drift, Rooting for Rivals, the Spiritual Danger of Doing Good and the Gift of Disillusionment. Peter brings both deep personal experience and rich theological insight to the question, what does it truly look like to help those who need it the most? Joining him is John, founder and President of Love Justice International, where our mission is to share the love of Jesus Christ by fighting the world's grace and justices.
Together, Peter and John wrestle with questions like why did Jesus center the poor, the vulnerable and the marginalized?
How do we operationalize Matthew 25 helping those who need it the most, wisely, urgently and without causing harm?
How do we stay rooted in the Gospel in the midst of the emergency of others suffering?
And how do we stay focused on the places of greatest need, even when the easier path, comfort, status quo or self preservation tempts us to drift?
If you want to help those who need it the most, this episode is packed with practical wisdom and spiritual clarity on how to do that beyond good intentions and without losing heart. Let's dive in well. Hi Peter, welcome to the Love Justice Podcast. We're so excited to have you here this morning.
Before we dive in, I think what would be really helpful for our listeners is just a brief introduction to your story, Peter, and specifically what shaped your passion for serving the least of these and how that journey led you to Hope International.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Thanks Hannah. And the story could take a little while, so I'll just give you three significant moments because you look back on your life, right, and there are those moments when you realize that there is a significant change of direction. And in my case it was always because of a person that I met.
And so the first of those moments was when I was study as an undergrad. I Was at Messiah University and I was studying as part of the International Business Institute. And I had this strong interest in global missions and strong interest in business and entrepreneurship.
And at that moment, I thought those were two separate activities.
But I was in Moscow and met someone who for the very first time showed me how these two can fit together in a powerful and compelling way. He was doing economic development in the former Soviet Union.
And as I listened to what he was doing, it was like these two interests that I had came together in a beautiful and compelling way. So that was a defining moment because it introduced me to this idea about global economic development and global missions coming together. That was one moment. Number two moment is after graduation, I had this interest to go and serve and do.
And it was really hard to get a job. I wasn't even trying to find a job. I was trying to find an internship. I was. I was sending my resume out to anyone who I could find and said, I'd love to get some experience. Is there any opportunities? And sent that out to 10 organizations and heard back from one of them. And the one that I heard back from was saying, well, keep your resume on file if anything in the future comes up. Kind of a form response. And I was like, that's not good.
But a few years later, met an individual named Clive Calver who was with World Relief. And he was so kind, he was so gracious. He was speaking at a conference. And I came up to him afterwards and said, this is what I want to do with my life. Everything that you just shared. And he was so kind. And that opened up a door for me to go to Cambodia with World Relief and then to Rwanda. And that really got me into this whole field. So that was a defining moment. Number two. And then defining moment number three is while I was in graduate school, did a project on HOPE International in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and just happened to coincide with the president of HOPE International, who was there at the time, Eric Thurman. And again, such kindness. But he said, I'm going to be transitioning away from HOPE and would be curious if you'd consider stepping in after you're done with your graduate studies. And that was 21 years ago when I joined Hope International. And so really, my career, my interest and my career have aligned on this idea about using business as a way of serving the least of these by using tools of business and investment, helping individuals create jobs and grow enterprises as a way of working their way out of poverty. And for us, doing it all within a very intentional Christ centered Approach. So that's the journey. Those are three defining moments that have led me to this work that I get to do.
[00:05:48] Speaker C: And I love how what you said at the very beginning of those three divining, defining moments being marked by people that you met. And I think that God can work so powerfully through other people. And you never know when you're going to meet that person or when you're going to meet someone who will lead to the next defining moment. That's a very thought provoking kind of thought that we could even talk more about at a different time. But I, yeah, I love that. I'm encouraged by that, John. Love Justice's mission is to share the love of Jesus Christ by fighting the world's greatest injustices.
Why does lji tie evangelism and justice together so explicitly? And why frame it around the greatest injustice rather than just the general good?
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, well, first of all, great to have you, Peter. And I really appreciate just the ways you've blessed me over the years. And yeah, what you shared it is those moments when God's deft hand connects us with people that really shape our journey.
But yeah, Hannah, Jesus says whatever you do for the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you do for me. And so that's our target as an organization, I think, as the church. Those who we should be seeking to help are the, the neediest people. And that's the world's greatest injustice. The people who need help the most are suffering the most.
You know, by definition they need it the most. So, so we should help those and you know, that that's what, as you know, one of our core values help those who need it most. And our second core value actually connects to the other part of your question. And that's be the kingdom, you know, where we consider our primary identity is as part of the body of Christ. Love justice is just, just a shel way. And you know, ultimately we're working through churches trying to live out the gospel and how we work and live and relate to one another. And we also very much believe in, in sharing the gospel. You know, we, we feel that the, the message of the gospel and the words of the gospel is tremendously important and, and really souls are more important than, than physical needs.
And yet we're essentially a lot of our work is focused on justice work and we see ourselves as calling the church to love justice. You know, so if the church is sharing the gospel, but they're not doing it accompanied by love and action that meets the needs of people around them, they're not really sharing the gospel because the gospel is a gospel of love and love is not idle in the face of people's sufferings.
And so, yeah, I think that message of the gospel kind of goes hand in hand for us with trying to fight injustice and particularly the greatest injustices.
[00:08:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And John, something that I've always respected during my time at Love justice is that we don't emphasize one at the cost of the other, but rather it's two things that come together that make I think our work so powerful and life changing. And not just life changing on this side of heaven, but also for eternity, which I think is a really hard thing to balance, especially nowadays. And it's just something that I've really respected about the way that you've led our teams and particularly that area, area of our work.
Peter, John referenced Matthew 25, where Jesus says, whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me. Why do you think Jesus places such a strong emphasis on those who are poor, orphaned, widowed, marginalized and suffering? Why do you think that says, what do you think that says about the heart of God?
[00:09:35] Speaker A: I think it's this beautiful way that for God so loved the world.
Every single person in this. In this wonderful world, and in the way that the systems tend to work, that is not always reflected in the way that we as humanity value and treat others. We believe there are some with more perhaps worth in the way that we actually treat. We believe that there are some with more perhaps prestige or value.
And I love that we serve a God who says all means, all, all means, no exceptions. And I think that part of God to say there are some who for too long have been forgotten, who have not been seen as valued.
And I think that is part of the heart of God is saying those that the world has overlooked. I do not overlook those who the world have forgotten. I have not forgotten those who the world say do not have the same value. I say you have every bit as value as anyone else. And I just, I think it is a correction.
I think it is a realignment and juxtaposition between the way that the world tends to work and the heart of God. And I just love that. And it is, it's embodied in the way that Jesus lived, almost to the consternation of so many of the people at that time. Jesus, who are you going to have dinner with? Jesus, we got more important things to do. What are you doing to stop in this morning moment? And I just love a realignment of the world more in alignment with the way that God says, all are loved, all are valued, all are created in the image of God. And I just want to live more in alignment with the way of Jesus.
Yeah. In the way that we go about our work. So, yeah, least of these are not least in the sight of God by any means.
[00:11:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Peter, in a different interview that you did, you talked about the power of listening.
And I. I wonder if that act of listening is one of the greatest honors that you can give someone, especially the least of these, in terms of, like, I see you and I hear you and I'm with you, and I'm curious to hear a little bit more about that and just how hope serves the least of these.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Oh, it's so simple and it is so actionable.
But I think the question as an organization are, whose voices are you valuing most? And I think over time, it's really easy for us to listen and respond to the voice of donors. And that's an important stakeholder group, like those that give generously. It's really important to listen to the leadership team when you come together and you have leaders.
And the challenge with that is sometimes the people that have the most to gain or lose based on the services that we provide, based on the work that we do, based on the way that we do it. It is oftentimes for organizations most difficult to listen to, to prioritize and respond to their voices. And so we've really tried to shift the way that we do monitoring and evaluation. We actually change the name that we use. We call it Listening, Monitoring and evaluation so that it doesn't seem like cold or static. It doesn't seem like a research project or just quantitative tools to basically prove our impact.
It is with an ethic of love that begins with listening to those that we serve. And so we have tools and approaches that try to realign all of the voices matter. We want to listen to all of the stakeholder voices, but we want to start to have our plans and our priorities shaped by those that we serve.
And so we start there listening with those that we serve. And there are a number of practical ways that we do that.
There are a number of practical tools that organizations can employ in thinking about how we listen well to those that we serve. So, yeah, we think love starts. Love leads to listening. Listening leads to knowing those that we serve their needs. And that shapes an organization in a wonderful way.
So, yeah, when we think about the future plans, the question is, are we starting by listening to those that we serve?
[00:14:06] Speaker C: Real quick, Peter. Three, three methods that you do to listening and maybe like your top three, what would they be?
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, so I'm super proud of our listening, monitoring and evaluation team.
It's one of the simple tools we use is called dream catcher. Basically starts with what are the dreams of the families that we serve? Trying to understand.
So that is a tool that is used. Second thing that we use is called the hope quotient.
And the simple hope quotient basically looks at the four domains of impact. John, I really appreciated what you shared earlier. It's like, let's look at this spiritual impact. Are people growing closer to Jesus, more fully following him?
And then looking at the material impact, are they getting out of poverty? Looking at the social impact, are they growing in relationship and social capital with each other? And then the personal, are they filled with more hope for the future on that? So looking at the four elements of that and then the third, and this is maybe the simplest, but we go on listening tours and this is something that when I first arrived in Rwanda, my friend Pierre brought me on and it basically was like, we're not going to actually do the formal tools. We're not going to get the survey instruments. We're going to sit down in people's homes and say, would you tell me your story? And just listening tours. And the irony is that gets more and more difficult when you grow in an organization.
The more senior you become, the more disconnected you tend to be with those that you are serving. And so we really try to fight back against that by saying we want to regularly go on listening tours, just simply show up and listen to those that we serve. Tell me your story is a beautiful question that leads to wonderful insights of how we actually can grow and shape an organization as well.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Wow, that's a nice little nugget of wisdom, Peter. I even wrote down a couple of things as you were talking.
I really thankful, thankful for that.
John.
One of LJI's core values, inspired by Matthew 25, and for those of you who are watching, is a poster behind John right now. And that is to help those who need it the most. John, how do you actually determine who that is and what does it look like to operationalize that value in a world with so much need?
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's a very simple formula for doing that. I, I think you, you have to face up to and learn about injustice and think deeply about it, study it.
And, you know, I think listening to people who, who, you know of and, and, you know, just find a way to learn about it. And it's. They're not the loudest voices. In fact, they're often the quietest voices. And, and so you have to really, you know, search for those things. And, and yeah, and you look for, of course, those people who need help the most, but not just people who are in the worst situations necessarily, but, but the worst situation where you can do something about it. You know, if you're a doctor and you're in a village where people are desperate and some people are sick with something you can't cure, and some people are sick with something you can cure, of course you want it. The way to, to do the most good is to search for those that, that have the thing that you can cure. And so you want to look for a situation where you can actually make an impact.
You know, and it's like if my little pinky, if I have a little cut and it's like kind of infected and it's kind of hurt, just a hugely disproportional amount of my attention and thought and care and carefulness goes to protecting that little, that little pinky. And so it is with. That's how we just naturally are, because it, you know, and if we assume that every person is, is as valuable as I am, is the person I love most, which, which we believe as Christians, you know, that, that of course they are. We're all made in God's image and are precious in his sight, then it's just very natural that our attention should go to that little. Whoever is really in need of that help.
And you want to, you want to search for the ones who, who are lost and can be found, who are sick and can be healed. So it's part, part of it is learning about injustice. Part of it is learning about what works, what is effective to actually make an impact in people's lives. And so I think part of is learning about what has been done and really how should we even think about impact and trying to figure out what we can do to make the greatest impact. And what I would tie it back to, when I think about impact is like love would do unto others as we would have others do unto us. And so what would I, if it was my child, if it was me, which of those situations would I be the most desperate for? What would be the type of help?
If I was in that situation, I could get this that I would. Would most want.
And so, yeah, it's a really complicated world and it's, it's hard to do this well, but Jesus said the Least of these. And I think, of course, that applies to the people who are around us or who we run across.
But in, in today's world, you know, we know about things that happen all around the world. And so the. The least of these becomes a more complicated concept, I think, for us as, as a church with. In a globalized world.
[00:19:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Peter, I'm also curious for you to answer that question. How do you guys at Hope, you know, determine who the least of these. These are? And what does that look like operationally?
[00:19:38] Speaker A: I mean, real practically, there's two parts to the way that we make decisions about where we expand and, and oftentimes at a national level, it starts by looking at some of the indicators. We want to go to the places of greatest need. So we look at the Human Development Index and identify which countries are in greatest need for the tools that we provide. And then the second piece is the Financial Inclusion Index. We want to go to those places that don't have the services that we provide. And so that kind of maybe is a little bit of a desk study project. But then we also are looking and where's the invitation? Where when we show up, are we meeting with denominational leaders or other individuals? And they're saying, this is what we've been waiting for, this is what we've been looking for. And so that really guides us because we can't be everywhere and we want to go. And then once we are in a country, I'm so proud of our global team. But we've had an initiative of saying, and within the country, who are the most underserved within that country?
And so you. A couple months ago, I was in Burundi, and Burundi is one of the poorest countries on earth.
But within Burundi, the staff identified that there is a particular group in Burundi that is even the neediest within Burundi on that. And so we said, how can we go and how can we serve that community? So even within a national context, we're just asking the question of who are the marginalized, who are the underserved? And again, as we were just talking about earlier, how can we make sure that we are intentionally prioritizing, serving them?
And so that's the way that we've gone. About the other piece at Hope International that I just so love, which is we can't be everywhere, but we kind of have a part of HOPE that we've white labeled the products that we have, meaning the savings groups and the microfinance institutions, and created kind of a training component or an accelerator program. And so other organizations that are doing or want to do this. We love giving away everything that we have, coaching, equipping, supporting other organizations because we truly do believe we are all on the same team. So in the places that we can't serve, we know there are other individuals that are already there, other church denominations or other organizations. And so anything that we have that would be helpful to anyone listening, we're always happy to share what it is that, that that we've created and take, tweak, adapt, use, implement, if it is helpful in serving the least of these.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: Yeah, John, there's actually some similarities with what Peter shared as to love justice as well. Like the global numbers, I, I don't know what it, the reference is right off the top of my head, but looking at indexes and then prevalence of slavery and the openness of a country, do you want to, I'm just curious if you want to piggyback off of that a little bit and share maybe some of the practical, tangible ways that love justice also finds the, the least of these.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so, I mean a lot of our time, early time, was just learning about and coming across injustices and then trying to figure out what can be done and studying models and you know, and when I first learned about human trafficking in 2004, it broke my heart and for years it was, I would have said that it's the greatest injustice I've ever heard of.
So we started trying to figure out what models to work and there was sort of the, you know, the prevention strategies that existed at that time that we knew of, like awareness and job creation and didn't necessarily have a tangible effect where you could point to an individual. And then there's the post trafficking strategies, rescue and aftercare. And of course it would be far better to prevent it from happening if you could. And then when we discovered this intervention, transit monitoring, it was invented by several organizations working along the Nepal India border in the early 2000s. We were like, yes, this is the tangible prevention strategy that we wanted and took us years to figure out how to do it, how to scale it, and eventually we kind of learn how to do that. So now it's a similar approach. I mean, we use predictive modeling basically to predict impact on the dollar from all of our data from all of our transit monitoring projects. And it starts with a pretty geeky desk project. But then we have of course our regional stewards who are very relational, going in, trying to identify a champion in the country, building a relationship with them and exploring the, you know, you're looking for somebody who already has that heart. Maybe they already have a calling and somebody who's maybe already either doing that work, has been praying about it. And, and then of course we would go in and start, you know, we have a number of core processes that we would install. Hannah, you're involved in that. Of course that would sort of get that, that project launched off the ground.
So. But yeah, I really, I appreciate also Peter, your, what you shared about your open handedness with the things you guys have developed because that stuff's precious and valuable and you guys have invested a lot of time and thought into it and, and, and, and that's your intellectual property just to be so open handed with it. That is the right. And of course, you know, root. That's the spirit of rooting for rivals. When I read that book I was like, yes, after seeing the way that, that organizations in Nepal tend to kind of compete with one another not in a very territorial but, but reflecting on the fact that like if I'm not in a mindset where I would rather have someone else, you know, intercept 11 victims of trafficking than have us intercept 10, then my heart is set against our mission, you know, and I need to have that mindset and it's. It naturally I don't think anything about what other my I'm thinking about the impact of that we're able to have and that's natural. So I think it can so easily and automatically creep in to care so much more about them. But the kingdom mindset needs to be that we're in this together. I'd rather have someone else do more than me do a little less.
So I just love what you shared there and just your heart on that issue.
So thank you.
[00:26:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Peter, you have co authored some very influential books in the ministry space like Mission Drift, Rooting for Rivals, which we referenced earlier. The Spiritual danger of Doing Good, the Gift of Disillusionment. In the Spiritual Danger of doing Good, you talk about the dangers of doing good badly.
How even well intentioned Christian charity can cause harm. What are some of the common mistakes you've seen and how do we avoid them while moving boldly towards need?
[00:26:42] Speaker A: There's so many written or spoken on this and I love the conversation.
Some of the general principles that have been developed. I think the question of are we doing for or with that is a big question to consider. Are we assuming that we have the answers and that those who were showing up are going to be the recipients of our answers? That is a fundamentally flawed model and approach that never works. And so I think a lot of what we're talking about is just starting with the element of dignity, how we see people and assuming that they are living in the situation.
And if we are trying to solve all the problems as opposed to listening and learning and walking together, those just are better ways, I believe, of having long term impact. So a lot of those principles, I would say maybe if I could not answer your question directly though, Hannah, I think we have a danger of the other piece right now, which is, I think unintentionally there has been this message that we can cause harm with our good intentions. It's complicated, it's difficult. And I think some have used that as an opportunity to say, well, it's difficult.
Jesus said, the poor are always going to be with us anyway, so I don't want to do any harm, so I'm not going to do anything. And I think that is even worse than the previous. Like apathy and inaction are the worst as opposed to even if we get it wrong initially, let's learn from that, let's grow, let's improve on that. So I would say let's get in the game. You're going to do it imperfectly, do it anyway and just make sure you have a humble posture to listen, to learn and to improve.
But I don't think any of us have the option of opting out of the call to serve the least of these. I don't think any of us, if Matthew 25, if Jesus was serious in what he said, none of us have the option to say, well, I was worried about doing some harm.
So I saw the people in prison and I don't know what would have happened if I went and visited them. So I did nothing.
I saw that there were people who were hungry, but what if this created some dependency? So I didn't do anything on that. I don't think that that is a viable alternative. So let's understand it's difficult, let's understand it's complex. Let's understand sometimes it doesn't have the intended outcome. Let's have a humble posture and let's learn. Let's be excellent at making sure we are listening and learning. But let's make sure we are leaning in, not leaning back. Let's make sure we are having a default of action, not apathy. Let's make sure we are doing everything possible to say wisely and intentionally.
Let's go and follow in the way of Jesus and show up in care and respond to those who are in greatest need, okay?
[00:29:56] Speaker C: So I'm going to lead this next question, which is an off topic question with a little bit of some context.
And that context is my first introduction to Love justice was a vision team and that was an eight week trip to Asia with the organization, simply with the posture of exposing us to the work and the issue. There was nothing that I did in that eight weeks that made a difference to anybody in the country that we were visiting. Although my college mindset was I'm going to serve, I want to serve. Jesus called me to serve. I'm going to go change lives. Here we go. And left more me changed that country, changed me. And those people in that country changed me more than I could ever or will ever change change them. And I think that was a really hard lesson for me to learn is that it's actually not about me.
And there's so much that God can do in that well intentioned heart of I want to go. And what that ultimately led is to me serving with love justice for 10 years and ended up working with the organization. But that initial trip, you know, from a, from a perspective of impact, had no impact on anyone in that country.
So I'm curious thinking about who potentially could be listening in our audience.
Where does spiritual discernment come into this idea that we're talking about, which is doing no harm getting in the game, serving the least of these. Like where do you, where do you pair the spiritual discernment with the very practical kind of lessons and tools and monitoring and evaluation and listening? Like I'm just curious, Peter, to hear from you first on where you see those blending together, what advice you might have to people who want to get in the game or don't know where to start or how to do it and how to listen really well, I think, and how to really be humble and posture themselves before the Lord in that.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: I don't think your story is an anomaly. My experience is almost everyone that is involved in this work had a similar experience.
And you can read about global poverty and you can read about helping those who need it most. But until you have gone and see and experienced and had your heart deeply touched and moved by the people and the situations and the context, I think it's real hard to actually have that. So I would just say I wouldn't be dismissive of the experience.
I just would reframe them as you have done. And I think all of us have done that. Call them what they are. These are educational experiences. And just like we don't critique a class that we take that we took a class on fill in the topic. We didn't maybe apply all of that in that context, but that was an important building block. I would say similarly, this is an important experience. It's an important way of connecting with others, of learning, of having friendships, of growing, of having our eyes and our heart opened, of praying for God to use that in really remarkable and significant ways.
And for those that haven't had the opportunity to go, I would say go like experience it. Just make sure that it is done in a dignifying way with an organization that has a long term presence on the ground and making sure that kind of the baseline is that you're not going to harm those that you are going.
And there are some simple ways to do it and to maximize the good of the educational experience that it is. So I would say go and experience and do it with a trusted organization who has a long term presence on the ground.
That being said, then how do you go through the discernment process?
I love the Terry Looper book Sacred Pace. That to me, me has been so helpful. But he identifies these four areas of how we actually go through the discernment process. And for those that are trying to take that next step of so what do I do now?
I mean, he is this wonderful thing that involves gathering the facts and the research and education is so important.
And it involves consulting Jesus in prayer, it involves friends and trusted advisors, and it involves getting your heart neutral so that you truly want the Lord's will more than your own in that. And so I just think that's a wonderful way to say go through the process of having your heart and your hands open. And physically, I oftentimes find myself praying a little bit more with my hands open. Like, Lord, guide me, lead me, show me what it is that you want me to see. Show it me what it is they want me to do in that. And so, yeah, I would say go see and then explore what it is that God might be inviting you into.
[00:34:59] Speaker C: It's funny that you say this, Peter, because we have Terry coming on the podcast later this year and his book Sacred Pace is literally sitting on my desk because they, yeah, they sent it to us ahead of time. So that's a good little teaser for a future conversation, which will be really fun.
And John, I think that with this next question we'll also hear from you on that. So we can kind of tie both of those things together.
But one way that we help those who need it most is by do no harm, even when the urgency is high. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by do no harm and how you lead a team that holds both emergency effort and, and wisdom together, especially in our program work?
[00:35:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's hard that.
I appreciate what you shared, Peter, and I agree. We all start out just bumbling our way into things and ultimately like it. It is.
I, I don't know what, I don't know what it is, but I think it is about discernment. I think it's about the posture of humility. It's about listening and learning and it's also about as soon as you get involved and it was trying to really impact people's lives. It's really easy to start thinking of yourself as like, as a savior, you know, and it's really important to be right about that. I had this, I had a moment that I often talk about early in our work where I was working with this deaf street child and I thought to myself, if I don't help this kid, no one will.
And then I felt God just rebuke me and say, no, I have, I have this situation under control. Without you, no sparrow falls outside my care. And that was really important for me to really get out and, and to, to just humble myself and realize that I was being blessed to be a part of what God was already determined to do. And, and so I mean, but the reality is like you know, the world's greatest injustices, the situation of the least of these is for them an emergency like it demands it, it demands a level of urgency. You know, you know, people are desperate for help. So you, you, we need to like get, we need to get in the game. And yet on the, on the other hand, it's so easy to do harm.
So there's this quote by Rick Warren that out that I'll, I'll quote him. I don't know if I agree with it, but it's at least a helpful kind of frames the, the problem. He says, having traveled the globe for 30 years and trained leaders in 164 countries, I've witnessed firsthand that almost every government and NGO poverty program is actually harmful to the poor, hurting them in the long run rather than helping them. And that's in his, he writes that in the introduction to the Poverty of Nations.
And I don't, I don't know if I agree with it, but I, I will at least say that like I've seen how easy it is to do harm. I've lived living in Nepal for 20 years. I've seen a lot of work by NGOs, I've heard a lot, a lot of the effects of that harm. And I've just seen that it's, it's more common than I ever would have thought or known.
And the, the short way I would explain the, the reasons for that is because of the prevalence of corruption and the, how, the prevalence of abuse. And often you're, when you're trying to help people, you end up trying to put vulnerable people in someone's care, and they can end up being abused. A third is, is like learned disempowerment. That's a real third thing. And, and then the fourth is there's this wide cultural gap, and it's so much wider than I ever would have thought. Like, I, I, when I was one year in Nepal, I thought I knew everything about living in Nepal, you know, another five years, I was like, okay, I don't know. So when I, after I'd live in there 20 years, I, I just came to a point of, like, definitively I know nothing about what is going on relative to the right nationals. And, and if anything, I just learned how little I know of about how hard it is to discern things across culture and therefore how important it is to have the right nationals and to, you know, empower them to make decisions and to lead.
But so in light of all these, these ways that I've seen that we can do harm, kind of the first thing, it's just like the physician's adage, first do no harm. It's one of our global values. Of course, that doesn't mean don't do anything, but if you are going to do harm, it would be better not to do anything. But also, you're never, like you said, Peter, like, we all, no one gets into this in any other way than by making mistakes. And so, yeah, it's a really hard thing to discern. It's like, it's like in medicine. I mean, you wouldn't, you know, certainly don't do nothing for people who desperately need something, but first do no harm and then try to figure out what you can do to help.
And so, yeah, there's a situation where something is desperately needed, and yet, yet do you have this obligation. That's a hard balance to find. But I, I think it's both get in the game, but be really intentional about and really thoughtful and really careful because it really would be better if you, if you are, I mean, and there's, I say this as someone who has done harm, but through my work, through decisions I've made, I've made practically every mess of things and walked into every pitfall under the sun.
And so doing I learned and love justice was born out of, out of those mistakes and became what it is out of those mistakes.
But certainly for the in those situations it would have been better for me to have not been involved than to have done that, you know. And so we don't want to make the most vulnerable people are learning ground so to speak. So I don't have an easy answer for it. Annabeth I do agree with what Peter say. Just get that you I would say to anyone get in the game but you just have a posture of humility, have a posture of care and carefulness, you know and listen to people try to really understand things. Get, get find wise nationals. You really need the right like you said, long term presence on the ground people can really help you discern things.
So yeah, it's a, it's a really challenging but really important question.
[00:40:58] Speaker C: One thing I would probably add to your list John, is knowing when you don't know and acknowledging that and, and working with that baseline which is basically all the time. Yeah, yeah. And then surrounding yourself with. Yeah. A team.
One thing that we briefly touched on was that idea of emergency effort and how John talked about like if it was his pinky he would put all of his summon all of his resources, resources to fix his pinky. And the least of these or what we talk about in love justice is what would we do for the least of these as if it were the person that we love the most and how that creates a sense of urgency in the work that we do.
But Peter, I'm curious, in your view, what does urgency look like when it's rooted in the gospel? How do we keep it from turning into burnout or that savior complex that John referenced earlier?
[00:42:00] Speaker A: I guess the thing that comes to mind, Hannah, is we tend to over index how much we can accomplish in a one term, one one week trip in the places that we serve and underappreciate what can happen in a generation.
And so I think one of the important pieces that I think avoids the sprint that leads to a wall that leads to I can't do this. Long term is actually changing our time horizon. I think we need a longer term time horizon, longer term relationships for real significant good to happen. And again tying it to the previous conversation. If your time horizon is one week, that means we got to go in and we got to do as much programmatically as we possibly can. We don't have time to listen because we've got to do. We don't have time to sit and have tea because there are urgent needs that we got to respond to right now. And I think that is the wrong time horizon.
I am much more interested after doing this work. I am much more interested and intrigued by the generational impact that we can see in the places where we serve. And that requires a much longer term perspective. It requires changing from the short term trip to who's going to be on the ground, who's going to be there within the community, long term commitments. And so I think that's one way that can shift that. And ironically this is what we believe about poverty alleviation is that's one of the most important things. A short term mindset has to be changed for progress to happen. If you're only, only time horizon is how am I going to eat today?
You are not going to be able to invest in the crops in the future in and there's a lot of reasons why time horizon is short if you're living in a place of poverty. But, but I actually think both in problem and in intervention we can unintentionally shorten time horizon which does not lead to the most important pieces of life, long term health, growth and success, to truly break generational poverty. And so yeah, maybe that's one piece to consider is how might we have longer term commitments, how might we have longer term interventions, how might we have longer term approaches that really do result in lasting change? And again with that long term time horizon then we can tweak when we realize something isn't working, we can course correct when we realize that it's not having the intended impact.
And I just think good things grow in those longer term relationships.
[00:44:46] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a quote that Gary Haugen has which is the work of justice is a long walk of obedience in the same direction for a long period of time which very much correlates with what you're saying, Peter.
And I wonder and whether or not this actually makes the final editing cut or not. We'll see. But I wonder or a thought that I'm having as hearing you talk is this idea that yes, we are working with emergency effort for the least of these, but at the end of the day God is responsible in some ways for the outcomes of some of these things and we're a part of the work that he's already doing.
And there is almost, I think an element of grief and lament that comes with this isn't happening as quick as I want it to. And this world is very broken no matter what we do. And we hope obviously to make an impact. And we're striving to make an impact and do good and not harm. But at the end of the day, I think there is just this surrendering to God for, you know, we've done the best that we can with the time that we have, but at the end of the day, this is still in his hands. And I wonder if that is part of that posture of we work as hard as we can with the time that we have given within our natural limits of a workday or a working week. But then surrendering to God and say, like, ultimately you love the least of these more than I could ever love the least of these. Like, take care of the least of these, Father, because this is what I have to give.
[00:46:27] Speaker A: Any of our shoulders are strong enough to carry the weight of all that is wrong in the world.
We can't. There's too much. Our, our hearts can't take. All of that I love at the end of the day, saying, lord, you do love more than I can. You do see every single part of the brokenness.
You are there. You are at work in the midst of it. And then again, hands and heart open and show me the place that I could be involved. Show me the place where I could show up. Show me the people that I could walk alongside and share and show your love with. But we cannot carry it all.
I think this is one of the beautiful pieces that those who engage in long term effective poverty alleviation or global missions, I think they are those that have figured out how to practice Sabbath, which is one out of seven, letting go and being reminded God loves more. You do not last the duration without that habit and practice. I think those that can come to the end of the day and say, I did my part, I wanted to serve with excellence. I wanted to serve with passion. I wanted to serve faithfully.
And to know though that there is one whose shoulders are so much stronger. There are one whose eyes see and who heart is with everyone. And I think that is a difference in the work that we do that we know we do not work alone, we do not believe it is all on us.
And we have this incredible privilege of being invited into what Jesus told us to pray for. Is thy kingdom come under earth as it is in heaven. And isn't it amazing? We get to see little glimpses of that kingdom breaking in. We get to be involved in little ways of that incredible work of redemption in our world.
And I call it a privilege, but not the full weight of responsibility for all of the brokenness of the world.
Yeah, that is above my pay grade significantly. And we know God sees, loves, cares, every single one.
[00:48:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think the shadow side of that posture is almost recklessly diving into work and then being like, okay, God, it's up to you to bring the fruit. And you know, at the end of the day it's on you. Like there's a shadow side to that, that good side. And I think again, what the least of these needs is both tangible love in action that is impactful in changing lives, while also paired with that surrender and that dependence on God. And I think, John, this is a good segue to talking about another one of LJI's values, which is to treasure impact opportunities.
How does that shape the way you think about programs, priorities and even team culture at Love Justice? And maybe start by sharing what is treasuring impact opportunities?
[00:49:27] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean I came to this conclusion and I think we as an organization kind of realized that like, you know, being based in Nepal for 20 years, having, you know, dozens of staff whose job is to try to find opportunities to make a life changing impact kind of help me understand how hard it is and how rare it is to find those opportunities to really make a significant impact in someone's life and with that and avoid the harm, especially if to find something that, that's like, that, that's scalable, you know, and so we kind of, you know, it's not easy to find them and but I want to say when you do, like if, when you find that Good Samaritan moment, you meet someone lying on the road, you can, you have an opportunity to change the trajectory of someone's life. If you have, if there's a million dollars in a bag over there and one of those opportunities over there, I'm, I'm fully convinced that like eternity will reveal that, that the million dollar bag was, was at nothing but that opport. Those opportunities are more valuable than any, any treasure. And so, so we just want to, we want to treasure them, we want to search for them like treasure. We want to realize that they are rare, hard to find and exceedingly valuable. And then we want to always be thinking about them. We always want to be looking at them, you know, looking for them and just always having our eye out for them.
So I just, you know, we, we want to, I think we, as Christians, we as a church, we should really strive to see those opportunities that way and to just search for Those opportunities like the treasure that they really are.
[00:51:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I appreciate that, John. And that's so good.
Peter it's easy for organizations to get distracted or to drift towards easier work.
How do you think Christian leaders and ministries can stay focused on the greatest injustices, the places where people are suffering most deeply and unjustly?
[00:51:32] Speaker A: I believe in the power of asking questions and I think it is a very good question to ask periodically organizationally, where, not if, are we getting off mission? I think that is a good question. It is starting with the assumption that drift happens. It happens a lot. So where, not if, are we going off mission? And then number two, where, not if, are we starting to go down a pathway of playing it too safe and not re risking for the sake of the gospel? The gospel is inherently risky. Doing this work to help those who need it most, that is inherently risky. And I think that over time we got to make sure we are being willing to re risk and to not follow the gradual, but it seems like almost inevitable path towards safety, towards comfort, towards an inward focus organization over outreach. We got to be real careful that we are regularly reflecting where can we re risk for the sake of the gospel?
[00:52:41] Speaker C: It's probably our natural inclination to drift away from that.
And that is more of the, the, the natural tendency or the, the knee jerk tendency that we have. And so it is that constant like reorientating and making ourselves obedient to that truth. Because if we don't, I think we'd naturally just do that all the time.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well said. Yeah. And the other piece, again, when we're connected to a global team, which I think is one of the great gifts of being involved in this work is reminding ourselves, whatever our bubble is, there is a lot more out there. And the gift of friendships having those conversations cross culturally. So much fun. Last week I was in Rwanda and Kenya and had a conversation. It was on this exact topic. Hannah. But who else could we serve? Like, who are the, the, the pockets that are the most challenging? And one of the things that we got to see is a group of individuals that were all in there. I think, I mean, it's not appropriate to ask age, but they were in a latter stage of life and it was beautiful because they said in our context, these individuals are not commonly served with these types of, you know, for us we're helping people start small businesses. And they say that's not typically the group. And we heard unbelievable generosity. We heard this gift of people coming together and it was so inspiring. But for in that context, they were like, this is a new area, this is a new group that is not served, and let's go serve. So I guess I give that as an example to say, those closest to the work are going to be able to answer that question better than those of us that work in support functions. And so, again, listening and asking questions, I think will shape organizational outreach and behavior in a wonderful way.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: Yeah, Peter. As we come to a close, many of our listeners care deeply about justice and faith, but may feel overwhelmed by the scope of suffering in the world they might feel overwhelmed with. What is the next right step? How do I get in the game? What would you say to someone who's asking, where do I even start?
[00:55:03] Speaker A: Oh, I think that the three classic steps are, one, learn. I mean, the fact that in some ways, that might be a false question for those listening to this podcast because they're already on the journey, Right. They're already saying, I am interested, I want to learn, and are showing up. And I would say, just keep doing that. Learn about the organizations.
And then two is pray. I really believe that God guides us. I really believe that prayer is this deal where it's not just presenting everything that we would like to God, but actually giving a little bit of time and space to say, and, Lord, would you guide me in this process as well? Connect. So I would say, learn, pray, and then be on the journey with others.
Go and spend time with others that have a similar heart.
If you are doing the journey alone, it will be a much different experience than if you actively and intentionally seek out others who have that same heart to say, let's do something in our world. Let's make an impact. Let's actually read Matthew 25, and then let's do what it said on that. Let's figure out how our gifts, our abilities can be involved in helping those who need it most, be on the journey with others. And so I think if you do those three things, my guess is you will have plenty, plenty, plenty of opportunities to figure out what it looks like to engage in effective and meaningful service in your community and be involved with organizations that are having an impact around the world as well.
So that's what I would say. Learn, pray, and go on the journey with us others.
[00:56:51] Speaker C: Yeah, And I just imagine a prayer of, like, you know, father, help me to live out Matthew 25 in my life. I don't think that the Lord's going to let that go unanswered.
Like, I don't see a world in which that would go unanswered. But what I think it requires of us in that prayer is remaining expectant and being vigilant of, okay, where then is he answering that? In who I'm meeting with. And probably similar to what you shared at the very beginning of this, of just the people that you met along the way that changed the trajectory of your life, Peter, that probably those interactions, I would imagine, probably came after a prayer, a prayer for direction or discernment or, you know, help me get into the game. Where is that? And I feel like I can resonate with that too, Peter, of even with a little bit of my story and being at passion, hearing about human trafficking at passion for the first time and just saying, like, lord, I'm all in, like, where can I go? And then learning about tiny hands, you know, that same day and then that, you know, then that was the snowball effect of like, okay, now here we are.
And it didn't matter what qualifications, it didn't matter if you had the resume. I mean, obviously those things are important. But I think at the end of the day, if you have a willing heart and you're ready to go, God can do a lot with John, as someone who's built a whole organization around helping those who need it most with emergency effort while doing no harm yet treasuring impact opportunities, I'm going to say that one more time just because that's so rich.
As someone who's built a whole organization around helping those who need it the most with emergency effort while doing no harm yet treasuring impact opportunities, what's one thing you hope every listener would believe or do differently after truly embracing the call to help those who need it the most?
[00:58:50] Speaker B: Honestly, Hannah, I was thinking about when you said that prayer that lord, help me, help me to, help me to do that. I want to follow Matthew 25.
And I can just imagine there's some listeners who are like, it's just such a simple prayer, you know, like, why, of course.
But I can imagine that it might feel kind of scary to, to pray that, you know, because Hannah is right, God answers that prayer and he will answer that prayer.
But I want to say this. I, I, I really do understand, like, that feels daunting. It feels like he's going to, he's going to take something from you, you know, and it's going to hurt and it's going to, you know, and, and that's probably kind of true that, that I think God does ask us to sacrifice.
But I just want to say, like, you will be blessed in this life and the next.
So Much more to such a degree that will make that thing that he took away from you seem like nothing. And I say that because, you know, Jesus promises whoever leaves home and family and fields for the sake of the gospel, you know, will inherit 100 times what he left in this life, in this age and the age to come. And I left my home and family 20 years ago and moved to Nepal. And, and honestly, like, and it says. And along with those, those. And it says more fields and, and. And let's see, fields and friends, you'll promise more of that and along with it, persecutions. And I, I can tell you that that's true. We went through a lot of hard things in the bald at the time, were really, really hard and really like, traumatizing hard.
But like, on a whole, in the this world, blessings that I've had to be able to be a part of something so meaningful, to be able to see the impact that we're able to have to be able to be in community with people like you, Hannah, and other Love justice staff, and to be on a shared mission together. It just makes that sacrifice look like nothing. And so I've come to a point of like, that promise really, really is true. And it's made me start to quit to think, like, what if all of God's promises like that are true? Because of course God does again and again ask us to give up things that feel SC scary to us and we're scared and then. But he promises blessing. And I just, I'm starting to get to a point of like, I really think he means that.
So in terms of what I would say, you know, to every listener, you know, take everything that you are and that you have with your life and in your life and make the greatest impact you can. And I think that all of us should try to do that. It's all there in that one word, impact. You know, it's all there in that one command to love.
And of course, like, harm is a negative impact. So maximizing impact means, of course, you're minimizing harm.
And I want to say, like, what we sacrifice our intentions, how something makes us feel, those things don't matter to the target beneficiaries of our charitable work and giving. All that matters to the least of these is that they are truly helped and impacted. And so I would just challenge everyone with your giving, your volunteering, your work, your vocation, and with your life.
Diligently, thoughtfully, faithfully humbly strive to make the greatest impact you can in lives of the least of these it's kind of obvious that that's the ultimate purpose of man and why we were put on here on this earth. You know, we call things good because they accomplish their intended purposes. A good scissors cuts well, a good car is good because it's good at driving. That's the purpose of a car.
But, you know, like when a good person is a moral person, a person who impacts other people's lives in positive ways, who loves others, and that tells us something about our purpose, you know, at the end of their lives, we'll all regret many things that we value too much, but we'll never regret that, the good that we do for other people with our lives.
[01:02:47] Speaker C: Thanks, John. And thanks, Peter, for joining us this morning. I know that you are probably a man in high demand and so thank you for being generous with your time and generous with your wisdom.
And we just appreciate the friend that you've been to the ministry and it was just a pleasure getting to know you a little bit more this morning.
[01:03:07] Speaker A: Thanks to both of you. Great to be together and yeah, just anyone who is doing this work on the journey together, we are, we are friends. So grateful for your friendship and the work that you do in this community as well. So thanks so much.
[01:03:21] Speaker B: Amen.
[01:03:24] Speaker A: We are grateful for the generous support.
[01:03:26] Speaker B: Of the Love justice community. Please consider joining our family of donors.
[01:03:30] Speaker A: Learn more at lovejustice ngo.
