Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Love Justice Podcast where we hear from different voices who are joining us in the fight against modern day slavery. Here's your host, Hannah Munn.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to the Love Justice Podcast where we share the ideas behind Love Justice's impactful work through conversations about fighting the world's greatest injustices.
I'm your host, Hannah Munn and today's guest is Terry Loper, a Houston based entrepreneur, author and follower of Jesus whose life and leadership journey have inspired countless business and ministry leaders around the world. He is the founder and CEO of Texon, a multi billion dollar energy company and the author of Sacred Pace, Four Steps to Hearing God and Aligning Yourself with His Will.
After achieving except extraordinary professional success in his mid-30s, Terry found himself physically exhausted, emotionally drained and spiritually empty. What he calls his crash. That experience became the turning point that led him to radically reorder his life around intimacy with Christ and the practice of discerning God's will at what he calls a sacred pace. Through his writing, speaking and mentorship, Terry now helps leaders slow down when listen and surrender their ambitions to God's purposes, learning to want God's will more than their own.
His four step framework Consult your friend Jesus. Gather the facts, watch for circumstances and get neutral offers a practical and deeply spiritual roadmap for anyone seeking to live, lead and live from a place of peace, clarity and obedience.
Terry and his wife Doris live in Houston, Texas and are passionate about investing in the next generation of Christ centered, centered leaders.
And one of the ways that he is doing that is through this conversation today, which is full of wisdoms and nuggets from Terri. So without further ado, let's jump on in.
All right guys. Well, we have a real treat today. We have Terri Loper with us. And Terri, for listeners who may not know you, could you tell us a little bit about your story, your career, the success you've experienced, the burnout you faced, and how that journey ultimately led you to where you are now. Sharing your story with us.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Wow.
Okay, I guess I'll start at about age 32. I'd had a couple, I worked for a couple different companies prior to that, a big company and little company, and then helped a gentleman start an energy, hydrocarbon, energy marketing and trading company when I was 32, which was a long time ago, but in that it was my first chance to make kind of unlimited income, which I learned later in therapy that I wanted to make a lot of money to try to get the attention of my parents. You know, you learn a lot of things when you finally grow up. Anyway, so I was very driven and, and, and this was my opportunity to make a lot of money. And I started getting dizzy. We were being successful, but we were night and day and starting to be. Started getting dizzy and went to a doctor. And he said, well, that's stress.
And I said, well, give me something fart. And he said, no, I'm not doing that. So one thing led to another. And then on a Saturday morning, I was at home with my wife and two daughters. But I just found out later that I burned out that morning. I just, my brain was somewhat fried. It had overextended itself for way too long. I knew who I was with, I knew where I was, but it wasn't, it being. The brain wasn't willing to engage in anything of any decision process. So I went back to the bedroom and Dar shut the drapes in the door and basically I just started crying because I thought I'd lost my most prized possession, my mind.
Well, I ended up getting on the floor on my knees and praying for the Lord to take control of my life because I clearly had done a poor job of it.
Well, the long and the short of that is I was born that morning, but I didn't know it for a year later actually, because I was a deacon, I was getting ready to be an elder. I prayed to the Lord. I believed in the Lord.
The only problem is I didn't want him to be Lord. I wanted to be Lord. I kind of referred to him as, I now refer to him as kind of. I was a six year old, like Santa Claus, asking Santa Claus, I want this, I want that, and you're kind of telling Santa Claus what you want. Well, that ended up really being kind of my relationship until I was born again. Well, out of that I did a bunch of therapy. I learned besides the fact I was an unbelievable people pleaser, I was an unbelievably poor leader of the business we ran at that time. And we were sold it right at that time for more money than I expected to get at that age or most any age. And so that magnified my burnout somewhat of catching my false God, because you're not really supposed to do that. And so some time passed after we sold and I did my therapy and started really following the Lord and finally started trying to become a good father and a good husband who I had not been in terms of way too preoccupied in my quest for deals, making deals. I was clearly a deal junkie.
And then three or four years passed as I Tried to figure out what I wanted to do next, from being a youth minister to whatever. But I loved deals. And my pastor said, I only see you come alive in your eyes is when you talk about doing deals.
So I decided I was going to start my own company, which I had been way too weak to ever have my own company emotionally.
But God had shored that up and I was going to use my own money.
But I didn't want to go back to being a workaholic and being a bad father and a bad husband. And now I had a following of the Lord I wanted to do.
So he convicted me, which I don't recommend to people other than whenever the Lord convicts you of something, you should do it. But what he convicted me of is to work only 40 hours a week as you started a brand new company and have no metric sales goals so they wouldn't be false idols, false gods.
And that led to 35 years of a very successful company.
And last year in 2024, I sold it after 35 years and retired at the age of 75.
And so since then I've been doing a lot of ministry and mentoring. I've been doing a lot of mentoring over the years. And so hopefully that gives you enough.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that is how we found you is in that mentoring. I think you were partnering with Ardent Mentoring at the time and one of our senior directors had heard you speak and was just really blown away, I think, by your story and your testimony. And Terri, I think something, you know, having, having read your. A little bit of your story in your book, I think that now that we're face to face, something that is just permeating through the screen is just your humility.
Your humility to be able to say, um, you know, like, here were the false, the false gods and the idols of, of the business world. And I was, you know, this was the type of father, it was the type of husband I was. And like, it just takes someone so secure in their relationship with the Lord, I think, to really own up to that and, and boast about that weakness so that, you know, God can be made glorified in that process.
You have said that you had a crash, that burnout moment before you discovered what you call a sacred pace. And you write about this in your book Sacred the Four Steps to Hearing God and Aligning Yourself with His Will. Why do you think slowing down is hard for us and why.
This appears to have been a big theme in Christian writing lately. You know, like your book and then the ruthless elimination of Hurry, practicing the way.
Whether we're business leaders, parents, or people serving in ministry, why is it so hard to slow down? And why do you think it's becoming a theme?
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Oh, goodness.
I. Let me first say I was able to burn out without social media and without a cell phone. So that just tells you how bad off I was.
So, you know, to today with social media and cell phones and, you know, the Western world doesn't slow down, it doesn't pause, it doesn't reflect.
You know, they say, have no saying that if you want to do God's will, do, do exactly the opposite of culture, and you'll be right 95% of the time.
So, I mean, it's just every day, that's what's creeping in on us. You know, I asked a public CEO of a public company one time, it seems like, and he was a nice guy. He said he was a Christian. And I said it seemed like you treat your employees like pieces of equipment. You oil them and you grease them, but whenever they get, you know, in bad shape, you just cast them off and get a new piece of equipment. And he thought for a moment and he goes, yeah, that's probably right, Terry. And so, I mean, and that's normal in our society. So. And, you know, we're, you know, now sports are played on Sundays with kids, you know, here in the United States, and just now they want to practice all the time and play all. I mean, it's just we've ramped up to where no one has time, doesn't appreciate the value of pausing, meditating, reflecting, scripture reading, prayer. I mean, yet it's definitely going against culture, even somewhat against the typical Christian culture, I might add.
So.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And when you tell your crash story, specifically in your book, Terry, you alluded to it in the beginning.
It is this really. It was this really dramatic pivot for you in your life.
And I'm curious, after that turning point, what old habits of hurry or control still crept back in or still creep back in today? I don't know. And how do you respond to those, make them obedient to Christ?
Especially with the backdrop of what you just shared of like, man, our world today has all these things vying for our attention.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Hannah. As you know, it's a journey for all of us.
Do I fall off the wagon still? Yeah.
Have I put up a lot of boundaries? Well, let me say my burnout and the fear of possibly burning out again has been a huge motivator to not doing that again and therefore having boundaries and therefore Putting up. I've also learned you cannot trust yourself because biases, blind spots, goals, object. You know, you can't really trust yourself.
And so you.
So things like I've got a best friend. We have no secrets from one another.
We're able to help each other with blind spots. One of my favorite things in the whole book is when somebody asks you to do something. Now I say, I'll let you know tomorrow.
And if I answer right now, I'm answering out of pride or fear or wanting to impress somebody.
And so.
And so I usually say yes, and it usually should be no.
So if I'll wait the next day and maybe ask my wife or a friend or usually just on my own, you can kind of just get an objective opinion of whether you should do something or not. And I put up some other boundaries. When I sell a business, I don't spend any money, any material amount of money for a year because my pride and my greed, if you will, gets ramped up and. And I have to wait usually about eight months, though. I wait a year, but about eight months for my. I'm back to my normal level of sin where I'm not going to do something stupid with money and buy something I wish I then wouldn't have. So do I still that. Matter of fact, I'm speeding as we speak. I'm just trying to adjust to this retirement thing.
Doris and I have been gone probably every. Well, every week in October and November I know. And most in September that we've been gone.
And then.
So that tends to speed me up. And so I have to spend some really quiet time and. And journal. I mean, just whatever gra. Whatever you got to do, you got to do because speeding doesn't work.
So anyway, those are some of the things. I mean, I've got a lot of other boundaries and thoughts around it, but it's basically God's way is truly the best in my way truly isn't.
And the more I can get that in my soul, the more I'm willing to try to follow him.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I love the term terri that you're using of speeding.
And then like one takeaway that I'm even. I even wrote it down was, I'll let you know tomorrow.
Like, what a simple, practical. Like, I'll let you know tomorrow. Because as a fellow people pleaser.
Yeah. There's all sorts of. And I think there's all sorts of things like waging in your heart. And what I'm also realizing as I'm talking to you is, you know, you, you terri. Because of how much life you've lived, you're able to articulate that more eloquently than I think, you know, someone my age could. Cause I'm still figuring it out. I'm still. And, and like you're aged wisdom over here. Like you are, you know, you, you have the, the language and the insight and the awareness and that slowing down to articulate it in such a eloquent way. Eloquent way which then you know, as you're mentoring people, mentoring young professionals, mentoring the next generation, it's like, oh, that's good. I'll let you know tomorrow.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Real quickly, my hrvp, she, she was overwhelmed and, and at church and stuff. And I said, just do the one, just the next day, just wait till the next day. Tell them. And so she, a month later she said, I didn't know, I didn't know it was going to make a mad because she would end up saying no. I said, oh yeah, they just want to get rid of their situation and put it on your back. Anything they do, get rid of it and get rid of their problem. And so yeah, they get mad at you because now you're, you're willing to use some wisdom and discernment from the Lord as to, to what you should say yes to and what you shouldn't.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so follow up question to that as a people pleaser and you know, like that, that sentence of like, yeah, you're going to make people mad. How do you navigate that? And how do you maybe again that phrase of like, how do you make that obedient to Christ? Like the willingness to displease somebody, being a people pleaser while also trying to be obedient to the Lord.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Well, I'll say this. I had an unbelievable psychologist that actually could go into your, your past and your childhood and your dysfunction and yank out some burdens, some not real heavy trauma, but trauma in the sense of how it affected you.
So I was blessed with that.
So now I consider myself a recovering people pleaser, like a recovering alcoholic. So now I'm still a people pleaser, but now I have the courage to, to, to say what I need to say. My, my wife, I've had to say some pretty direct things to a couple of our pastors over the years. And Darcy, you're running off all our friends. I said, well, no, I'm just telling the truth.
And you know, she said, well, the pastors are leaving. I said, well, they probably should.
And, but anyway, so it's a journey. But I, I, I, I named myself. I'm still a people pleaser, like an alcoholic, recovering alcoholic says he's still an alcoholic.
So I say I'm still a people pleaser, but I'm a recovering one. And now I get the courage to, from the Lord to speak the truth when it, when it matters.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, love that, Terry. Okay, so your book Sacred Pace has this like four steps to hearing God and aligning yourself to his will.
And you lay out those four steps, obviously in the book, consult your friend Jesus, gather the facts, watch the circumstances and get neutral.
Can you give us like a very brief, high level overview of each of those steps as a way of like maybe laying some context for, you know, the direction of our conversation?
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Sure. You know, the first one is consulting your friend Jesus.
I realized in John 15 he wanted to be our friend, so I've taken him literally that, okay, I'm going to consult my friend Jesus, and he already knows the answer, and he already knows what I should be doing. So this is just a journey of me trying to get out of my way and die to myself, unfortunately, to see what it is he has in store for me.
So I'm constantly praying, so to speak, point being, never quit praying about the fact I'm trying to get to where I can discern his will.
So the second step, if you will, which is more of a homogeneous deal, is gathering the facts. Just like in a businessman, business person, you're doing due diligence and gathering the facts. So this, Does Jesus need me to gather the facts? Well, I need to gather them in order for me to keep getting the courage and the confidence through prayer and surrender, to consider his will, which I still don't know yet. So I'm gathering the facts. And one of the two things that happened to me, or one in particular is, is when I'm not getting neutral, when I'm just operating my own deal.
If I'm trying to decide, let's say I want Hannah to come on my board of my company, and if some, if I really wanted to, and someone tells me something negative about you, I discount it completely.
And if someone tells me something really great about you, I elevate it. And I'm focusing only on the positive because that's what I want. Well, when you want God's will, you don't get to do that. Now I'm going, okay, they said something negative about him, I need to check that out or something positive. I said, well, that's good.
And so that's an example of the due Diligence process as you're praying along, just trying to get out of the way.
You also often think your opinion is a fact.
Again, you can't trust yourself. It's amazing how often I have an opinion and I think it's really a fact. So again, you're trying to catch yourself. The third one is circumstances. Watch for circumstances. And I just say which ones. That's where people always ask me. And I'm going, well, Psalm 37:8 says 37:4, excuse me, says, delight in the Lord and I'll give you the desires of your heart. So if the desires of your heart is really to do his will, I think that's delighting in Him. So he's going to highlight or get your attention on which circumstance really matters. So you can just be organic and just keep moving along.
But the whole reason I wrote the book was the getting neutral step. It's a term that the Lord blessed me with 40 years ago, I guess, maybe 35 years ago.
And what it meant and what it means is it just, I want his will more than my own.
And it's not a religious term. So it kind of sticks with people versus being obedient or surrender.
It's not perfect words, but it kind of hangs. People kind of like it.
So the reason I wrote the book is because when I finally, finally, finally get to where I want his will more than my own, and not until, which is very important, he gives me peace in my gut that is all knowing, completely assuring like that, 40 hours a week. I told him that's the stupidest idea I've probably ever heard for a guy starting a company.
But he convicted me and I went, well, okay, I guess. Okay, okay. And it was far from intuition because it wasn't remotely what I was expecting or wanting.
So this gives you a little flavor. So most Christians, the reason I wrote the book, most Christians on heavy decisions really don't think the Lord gives them an answer.
And my layman opinion is he kind of doesn't, because you're still operating in your own world. And, you know, they say, don't give unsolicited advice to someone, so if he tells you what you're wanting, you're still operating in your own world and you're not going to take his. You're not going to do what he wants anyway.
So I think that's why people don't know it's very painful to get out of the way of major life decisions when you want his will.
I don't get peaceful and get Neutral in a day, the bigger decision, the longer it takes because I'm just human. I mean, you're actually having to decide you want his will more than your own. And by the way, Jesus had his own opinion of what he had at the Garden of Gethsemane. He wanted not to go to the cross as a human, but obviously he was instantaneous in saying, but your will, Lord, your will, mine takes sometimes weeks or months.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I, it's interesting because that getting neutral was the one that stood out the most to me having been in this world and reading different literature on discernment, making decisions, leadership, etc, that getting neutral stood out. And as I'm hearing you talk about the getting neutral process, I think, think I wonder or my hypothesis is that God is actually really concerned about us and the process by which we get neutral. Like it's not about, I want to just get them obedient for the sake of obedience. Like, I really think he's interested in who we're becoming in that process.
And that doesn't happen overnight.
And it's, there's almost like something sanctifying and really holy in the process of getting neutral.
And you've also said that it's your favorite step in other interviews that I've listened to you and you've mentioned how like you can't really hear clearly from God if you're clinging to your own preference. And that's probably where so much of that battle internally that we come from or that we experience is because we want our own will and it's not being submissive or brought under the authority of Christ's will for us. Maybe one example connected to a different conversation that we had was forgiveness. Like you're, you know, you're going to feel the angst of unforgiveness if you're refusing to forgive someone. And God's will for us is to forgive 70 times 7. Right. Like, and so to get neutral is to forgive, even if instinctually we. It doesn't feel like the right thing to do or it might not be the thing that we want to do for sure.
Getting neutral also seems like the hardest one to practice out of or maybe the least intuitive one of like, okay, as a Christian, like, of course you're going to talk to God or talk to Jesus and then maybe from a business or you know, more secular perspective, like getting the facts is a very normal process. Right. Like you're getting the research.
But I imagine that it takes a lot of wisdom and self awareness to notice not only when You've done God's will, but also when you haven't, could you share a time when you weren't able to maybe get neutral or maybe even forgot to? What happened? How did God meet you in that? And how did you. How did that experience shape the way you approach getting neutral now?
[00:27:32] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm. I'm still human. Just so it's still a journey. I mean, I was in the middle of. We had kind of a. I was looking at selling the crude oil division years ago to one company, and then they said, no, we don't. Is really my partner. And they said, no, we, no. But I said, well, I'll go sell it for both of us.
Nine months later, I realized I had never got neutral. I had negotiated painfully bringing employees along, saying, gonna, you know, go work for another company and all that. Painfully.
This was in about 2000, so it was a good while ago.
And I realized nine months into it that I'd forgotten to get neutral. The guy that kind of came up with the idea or the idea of the way I present it.
And by the way, there's a lot of ways to get neutral. There's a lot of ways of trying to discern the Lord's will. I was just given this one way that he blessed me with.
Finally get peace of my gut where you actually have something tangible.
So you can say, okay, unfortunately, I don't like it. And usually you won't like his answer. And the reason is because he loves you so, so much.
He wants you to grow up and mature spiritually and emotionally.
And so he usually doesn't like it. So, I mean, you usually don't like it. So you have to then jump off the dumb cliff when, when, when you finally get neutral. Like the 40 hours a week, man, that was probably my first real time in my whole life to saying I got to trust him. Because that's. Doesn't make. This doesn't make sense. So anyway, I've done that. And then I told him for five years from about age 70 to 75, that, well, 60 something to early 70s, that I'm. I'm. I think I'm willing to sell the company whenever you tell me to.
But Lord, you know, I'm not neutral yet. You know, I have not surrendered that yet. So you actually have to help me surrender because I can't hear you if you're wanting me to sell. I can't hear you because I'm not neutral. So you actually have to, because it's my baby. It's been 30 years. You're actually going to have to help me.
And so one weekend, Doris and I were supposed to go to a ministry function and we were both going to speak, and I got sick of my stomach, which occasionally happens when I have to die to self about something really big. So I didn't know whether I had a little stomach flu or whatever, but. So she went on the trip and I stayed back.
When the weekend was over, I realized what he had done is help me die to self and be willing to sell the company.
And it was a catharsis, if you will, of my baby. I started it, you know, and it in mine and all that. So he blessed me with that. And I was able to get neutral and say, okay, I'm willing.
And then, interesting deal during the year, that sale process, I told him, you know, lord, I need you to cause me to suffer in this year process, the amount you need me to suffer. So I won't have any regrets.
I won't want to go back in business. I won't want to start more business out of ego and the little boy, the little dysfunctional boy. If you want me to start a business, that's fine, but I want to be.
I don't want anything hanging on.
And so I laughed with him more than once that I said he was doing a lot better job on the suffering part than I was on the surrendering part through that year. But he did bless me. And it's been a year and a quarter now, and I've had no regrets. I feel very, very blessed that he helped me in that journey.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: Terri, you also talk about watching the circumstances, and in that kind of chapter, you. You mentioned that listening is a lost art.
It takes a certain attentiveness to really tune into and see God's providence in our lives. How do you personally posture yourself to listen and notice God's hand in your circumstances? And what does that look like practically, maybe on a daily basis?
[00:32:18] Speaker A: Oh, you know, Hannah, it's just a.
You have to. You have to kind of decide. You have to look in your heart, not in your head, as to who is God to you in your head. You know, you read scripture and you go, yes, yes, yes. But it's only in your heart that you really is your will and really causes you to operate. So you have to first kind of go, who is God to me in my heart?
In my case, I said, well, he sees the future. He knows best, and I don't.
And he loves me and everybody around me way more than I ever Could.
And he's in control of all things, whether passively or intentionally.
And so I just try to be in a. Try to be in a frame of mind of what he may throw my way and try to just be available.
I think because he loves us so much, I think he will show us the circumstance that matters if we're really trusting, which is a huge word, if you really trust him in your heart, not in your head. Because in your head said, sure, he's perfect, he's all loving, but he loves us so much, he actually wants us to come alive.
He actually wants us to come alive.
That's how much he loves us. Whatever.
So if you really get to where you really believe him once you come alive, then he may throw you some circumstances that are pretty special.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that.
We had a podcast guest, Christy McClellan, and she is author some women's Bible studies out of.
She's from Franklin, Tennessee. And she just talks about, like, saying yes to the adventures that find us, the God adventures that find us, which is a theme kind of connecting to what you're sharing.
And Terri, I think one of the really unique parts about the trials and the tribulations and maybe the sufferings that we experience is that it, you know, the scripture in. I think it's James, like, count it all a joy when you suffer the trials of many kinds because it produces character, it produces perseverance, and it produces, like, this hope that, like this lasting hope. And I'm curious, like, if there was someone listening today that has never really slowed down to discern God's voice, maybe perhaps they are where you were at before your burnout moment or maybe feels. Yeah. Like they're on the brink.
What would you want to say to them? And what would you feel like they need to hear?
[00:35:30] Speaker A: Well, you know, I get asked that occasionally and I said, they say, you know, I've got a friend or a relative about to burn out. Should I get him the book? I said, right after he burns out, because.
Doris, my wife, just watched me flame out like a jet airplane.
And the whole times when I still had controls and she was trying to, you know, help me see the truth. I, I just, she just had to watch me flame out and then pick me up when I was done. And then I read a, you know, book, book about burnout. And it, it, you know, it's important it finally set to what, what, what, you know, an example is you got pain in your life and it's probably increasing until something changes. And then you got perception of the Pain to change.
And until the actual pain of everyday life on the subject gets above the perceived pain of change, you just keep staying. You just keep, you tend to just keep rocking along.
And so the burnout, I feel, was a huge bl. I mean, it's the worst day of my life and the best day of my life because I permanently changed.
I permanently changed because I'm going, I never want to see that pain of burnout ever again.
And so, unfortunately, pain is one of God's greatest gifts.
But, you know, and different people can withstand different levels of pain based on personality and based on history and based on their life.
So it's, it's, it's not an easy journey. The Lord sits back and go, like, really, like really, I got a lot of good ideas for you that you could really have fun, you could really have joy, you can really have success and be blessed. But let me know when you're ready, you know?
So no great quick answers on that.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Terri that response is actually making me think about that question maybe from a different perspective, particularly the perspective of someone like your wife, who was watching this all unfold to someone that she really loved and care about and probably felt really distanced from in the process of the burnout. And thinking about our listeners and maybe they are that person in someone else's life and thinking about the kind of the idea of you don't want to pray that hard things don't happen to those that we love, but rather you want to pray that, that when those things do happen, they know who to go to and that who being Jesus, and that they're turning to Jesus in those moments, even if maybe they're not a believer, that that's the moment that gets them there.
Yeah. So just maybe a.
I think.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: You know, we'll never really understand, maybe when we get to heaven how much he loves us, we'll just never be able to grass.
My psychologist said he was an ex Jesuit priest. He said, terry, I think when we get to heaven and, and, and we think we understand God, we're going to get to heaven, it's going to be an elephant, and we're going to have understood one toenail in terms of the scope of the Lord. But so my approach is just pray for his will because he's all loving, all knowing, all capable, and to just lift your spouse up to him or your child or relative or friend, just keep lifting them up and say, may your will be done. May your will be done.
Because his will is perfect and his timing is perfect.
And by Doing that, you're somewhat surrendering and trusting him, too, rather than telling him what to do.
I think that's glorifying him, and I.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: Think that's a good thing.
Yeah. Especially, like, you know, even our own desire in someone else's life, like, and the getting neutral, that's like a. Getting neutral at a different level of not just your own life, but also getting neutral in someone else's life that you really care about and, you know, want to help or. Yeah, that's a. I love it.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: You go, okay, so I'm going to assume my idea is better than God's. You know, it's pretty arrogant of us.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: Just lifting him up and then say, what I try to do in prayer, like that is, lord, put on my heart what you want me to do.
Ask you to do your will regarding that person.
But there's probably a role for me not giving unsolicited advice, but there's probably a role for me of doing something to glorify the Lord along the process and help to help that person without sticking your finger in their face and saying this or that, which is a complete disaster.
So that's kind of.
There's usually. It's not unusual for something for me to do that I probably don't even want to do when I'm praying for his will around that person.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: That's a good word, Terri. I think that's going to be a good word from this episode is not only the getting neutral in your own circumstances and praying, like God's will in your own life, but also that praying God's will and in those lives around you as well.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's. I kind of say, rather than God come down, I try to say, I'm going to go up there with you, and while I'm praying for your will on that person or situation, I'm up here saying, what is it you want me to do as a human?
And I'm having lunch with a guy today that got offended with me a year or two ago and, and, and just hit me with the Lord the other day. I don't know anybody else that's offended with me. And so I'm buying him lunch today to come address it. Now, do I look forward to that? No. Was I partly wrong? Yeah, for sure. And.
But I need to address it.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
There, within the love, justice culture, Terry, we talk about how, like, getting to that, the bottom of that, like, how we've offended people is actually one of the greatest gifts that we could ever receive. As someone having the vulnerability and the boldness and the honesty to be like, this is what was done that offended me, whether it was right or wrong, because it's generating that self awareness of man. This is how I show up. And it's really helpful to know that going into the next conversation or the next. And those are really hard. I think they're really hard conversations to have on both parties. They're hard conversations for the person who's like, really wanting to understand what it is they're doing that's offensive. And it's really hard for the other person to be honest about that. And, you know, good for you guys. Good for you guys that you're. That you're getting lunch. I think in a, you know, in today's age, a lot of people avoid conflict and they don't want it to disrupt, you know, their. The false sense of peace that there is. But it's like that turning towards. And relational repairs are actually what gives way to that flourishing love that you talk about of like, man. God just loves us so much that he wants us to be free and flourishing and in that circumstance as well.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: Right. And I hope I release him, but I'm doing it mainly for. Well, to glorify the Lord, but to release me in the sense that he put on my heart. I need to go explain myself better and listen to him and apologize where I need to.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So good.
And you're doing that even now?
[00:44:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, even now.
[00:44:29] Speaker B: So that's the hope that we all have is we're just going to keep plugging away at it.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Right? Right. My daughters go, are you kidding me? Y' all are still working on your marriage? And I said, it doesn't ever quit. I said, no, unfortunately, it doesn't ever quit.
It gets to be better and better rather than because of it, but keep tackling it. So. Yeah.
[00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
Terri, another chapter, kind of like a bonus, like chapter in your book was a chapter on is. The chapter is called is it the Holy Spirit or Intuition?
And I thought that was such a great idea and concept and chapter that like, I would, as someone, you know, who's. I feel like people are making decisions all the time. And it is. I think there's a lot of, you know, nuance around.
Is it my intuition? Is it the Holy Spirit? Is my intuition of the Holy Spirit type of questions and theology. So I'm just curious to hear a little bit more from you about how you discern the difference between intuition and the Holy Spirit. And have you ever had a time when you thought it was the spirit and then realized it was your own tuition or the other way around.
Yeah, flesh that out for us a little bit. Terri?
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Well, one of the boundaries I put in the book is when you come up with a great idea.
And I'm kind of come up with a lot of ideas that drive my wife crazy because she's real structured.
If it's a great idea and it's going to affect my business, my ministries or my family is, I put it on hold for a week.
And God is slow as molasses anyway, so you're not going to miss out on his will a week later, especially on big ideas where you got to make a lot of things happen over a period of time.
Well, 80% of those would be my guess. A week later are really bad ideas.
So I get to eliminate 80%.
I even had one idea so great I thought it was an amazing idea. And a week later I couldn't read my own writing, nor could I remember what it was.
Yeah, I mean, and I thought it was amazing that day.
So again, that's a boundary I put up to help sort through things to begin with. And, and you know, intuition, ideas are fleeting. God's ideas aren't. And, you know, he never wants you to be in a hurry. He always wants you with patience and surrender and time.
So his ideas, the Holy Spirit side, is stay with you. You start getting conviction, genuine conviction or passion. And I mean, he's, he loves you so much and wants you to come alive. So when it's his idea, it's not unusual for you to develop conviction or passion rather than just excitement, you know, rather than that temporary euphoria.
And so the key again is either waiting a day in a week, I mean, is not acting on it.
I told you I've been speeding lately and I've acted on one or two things that I'm going, you should have just left that alone. I mean, it didn't do damage. But one was around a ministry and giving, and one was around some generosity for God to take him hunting. And I'm going to, you know, I don't have time to do either one of those.
So it's a journey for all of us. But patience, writing it down, waiting a while, you can't trust yourself.
And then if it really is the Holy Spirit, I think he, I think he makes it known to you because that's what he wants. So he's going to make it known to you as long as you don't overreact.
Now, if you overreact too many of those, then you're not going to hear the Holy Spirit because you're not slowing down enough to hear the Holy Spirit because he doesn't come with a big gong, as we all know.
So you got to be keep fighting to get in a state of presence with him or life so you can have a chance to hear the Holy Spirit versus your latest great, latest and greatest.
So hopefully that helps.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah, as someone who, like, I love to run and I love to get things done, and I. The patience is something I have to practice quite frequently. And so even as I'm like feeling.
I'm feeling conviction even as you're saying that. But I think that's a real tension too, at the same time of like something that we talk about in our line of work with transit monitoring, where we have teams that are standing in the gap.
They're intervening as someone's in the process of being trafficked but before they're exploited. And so there's an emergency effort there where, you know, if it were the person that we love the most, like, and God calls us to love him and to love our neighbor as ourselves. And thinking about the least of these as those people that we love the most, there's nothing in us that would pause to just, you know, go with emergency effort. And I think particularly in Christian spaces, especially in the last several years, there's a lot of talk about excellence and wanting to pursue excellence, wanting to do it wholeheartedly for God's glory, but at the same time not getting caught up in that grind or caught up in the hurry that leads to burnout. And I think sometimes, you know, those, you know, the sacred pace and that excellence in doing things for God's glory, like sometimes, you know, it can. It's easy to see how they complement each other and, and other times, it feels, man, they're at odds with each other sometimes. And so, yeah, I'm just curious, like, as someone who has practiced the sacred pace over the years, how do you balance that excellence that I know you have? As you've mentioned, you've led several successful companies.
But so how do you lead and balance that excellence with rest, living on mission, giving all of, all of that?
[00:51:55] Speaker A: I've watched me before Christ was my Lord and as a leader and a businessman, and I've watched me after, and his way is just much better.
I've even asked ministry leaders, you know, my sense is when you get to heaven, the Lord's going to say, I'm a little confused.
You appeared to abuse your Employees in the name of the Lord to serve your clients.
And they all look the same to me.
And that's what the Western world tends to do.
I've introduced, helped introduce through some ministries, these soul care retreats for employees of ministries because so many employees and leaders have not given themselves an ability or time to understand their interior.
And these retreats, it's usually three, sometimes four.
They had one here in Houston.
A ministry had 325 employees. They've now all gone through these retreats and completely changed the culture.
I've got two others I'm involved in and they're maybe at the tipping point of changing the culture. And, and all, all it is, is helping the leaders and the people.
Get a better sense of the interior and where the Lord is and where he's operating and what he's wanting out of you rather than staying in your head.
And it's, it's been a huge blessing. It's actually my calling, you know, liberating souls and discipling. Um, and so it's, it's a journey for all of our ministries because everybody's in a hurry. Yeah, you know, everybody's in a hurry. I had one lady running a camp. She said, well, if I don't have metric goals, what, what do we talk about when we get together? I said, well, okay, you have a numbers go and then what do you talk about? Well, you talk about how to grow and be better and more excellent.
But I am absolutely believe if you operate at an organic pace rather than a frantic pace or a goal driven pace, you will succeed much more and you will succeed much more and give the Lord a chance to succeed. One of the problems when you run this frantic price. I've got a quote around here.
The Lord goes, I don't believe y' all have got me involved in all at all in this ministry and because of the frantic pace that so many of us can get on.
So anyway, you know, I could tell you some amazing stats about how my company did financially and otherwise, but it really works, it really works organically. Go at the pace that the Lord you get a sense. Yeah, you can have targets and whatever desires, but to operate organically at the pace that you get a sense of how it should go is a sweet journey and great results. See, people don't believe.
I mean, they just don't believe it. And I'm here to tell you, I'm not that great.
And I had way more success after I started surrendering to him to see what he wanted done.
[00:56:02] Speaker B: That's Amazing.
Terry, I know that you are very passionate about investing in the next generation of leaders and helping mentor, coach, disciple them. And as much as you probably would love to, we know that you can't personally mentor everyone.
So like, in addition to, you know the, the stories and the wisdom that you've shared today, if you could leave our listeners with one piece of encouragement or advice, maybe one additional piece of encouragement or advice, something that you would want them to carry with them walking away from this conversation, what would it be?
[00:56:42] Speaker A: I'm in the middle of starting my second book and if I was able to tell it, something fun that I would like to entitle would be give him a chance.
Just give him a chance.
His love and his knowledge and his ability to see the future and know best.
Give them a chance.
And then the subtitle would say when I surrender, I win.
I've gone around and asked people when you've surrendered the Lord, has it ever been a bad result other than at the moment because you have to die to self. You don't get to do what you want, you do what he wants.
And I hadn't found one person yet that says that it didn't turn out a great perspective. So, so that, so that's. So my book will be more practical applications of a Typical human. Not a ministry and not a theologian of just give them a chance. It's a ride you just, it's a ride you just gotta grasp and enjoy. It's just do it.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's also, you know, it could be a little bit of a daunting.
A daunting one too. Terri. Like you know, we just met today but when I said surrendered my life to the Lord, I ended up moving overseas and have been here for the last 10 years working in anti trafficking work and had my babies in three different countries. Like got found my husband in the field. Like just wild stuff that you know, definitely has its ups and downs. But I was just talking about this with our founder John on a different episode where we talked about breakthrough blessing. Like when you, when you reach the neediest with effective love in action.
And obviously that could look a number of different ways. Like the. There's this breakthrough blessing that unleashes in our life too. And I think that's very much connected to like when we do the will of God, he loves us and there's this flourishing and there is that, you.
[00:59:03] Speaker A: Know, right.
[00:59:06] Speaker B: That what you were, what you were just saying of like has it ever not worked out right? But we have to trust and then it goes back to the trust of like, but do you trust that he loves you that way and is good in that way to allow for that? Or you might not have all the pieces when you surrender, you know, you don't have the, the ten step plan or the end result or a window into that end result. It's like one blind step forward and then you just keep taking the next step, right?
[00:59:41] Speaker A: And you know, again, pain is a great tool of his. And not only have y' all gone through different countries and whatever, but he wants you to become whole and get rid of the junk from your childhood that we all have, just various levels and various situations and that pain.
He just says, I want you to become more whole. And so you got to, you know, you've got to have some pain inflicted for you to die to self and become mature, more mature spiritually and emotionally. I think it's very important to become more, you know, mature emotionally. And so part of that journey is for sure not a straight line and sure great every day. But he's got a plan. And as my sister says, I think it's, oh, goodness, forgot who said it.
But you can walk upright with dignity, or he can pull you by the hair of your head, but he's going to get you where he wants you.
So, you know, so it's a journey of walking upright with dignity and also getting pulled by the hair of your head because he loves you too much to leave you alone.
[01:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Terri 2, like, last bonus questions for us before we, we close our time together.
Jennifer, your lovely EA told me that you are you, you are so passionate about the gospel being shared and wanting that element to kind of be incorporated into everything that you're touching.
I want to know, like, how does living at this sacred pace help you to live that passion out in your everyday life? Whether that is, you know, you personally sharing the gospel.
You mentioned earlier too, which was the second question that we'll get into in just a minute, is like giving away your income and giving away like half of your income. Like, how does it, how does the passion show up there? Like, yeah, I'm just, I imagine that with this really powerful testimony, it's made you even more passionate about other people finding Jesus in their life.
[01:02:05] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, I, it.
When you get on a pace of organically trying to glorify the Lord at this theoretical, organic pace of his, it just works. I don't know. I mean, you know, you got to spend time with Jennifer. I mean, at my company, I sold. I mean, you Know, I told. I told him. I said it was 130 employees. And I said, you know, God loves me.
He loves each of y' all as much as he loves me. So he loves 130 of y', all, and he just loves. And I'm just one. Yeah, I'm the owner and founder and all that, but I got to pay a whole lot of attention to surrender, to look who's going to be the buyer. And my guess is the Lord cares 130 of you more about how it works out for y' all than it does for me.
And, you know, is that going and talking about the gospel and, you know, evangelism? Well, no, not really, but.
But it's trying to show God's love and going at a pace that it's not all about me and seeing what the Lord had in store.
And so I don't know, When I get to going too fast, it starts getting to be way too much about me and what I think's best.
And then the Lord just sits on the sidelines, said, go ahead and try that out. See how it works.
So that's kind of. I don't know. That's my suspense.
[01:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And then before we started recording, we were just touching base, and you had casually mentioned, you know, if you ever. If you wanted to ask me anything about generosity, you know, like, I'd love to answer a question or two about that, because you give away a significant amount of. Of your income. And so my question is for you, Terri, as you are, like, well, there's probably two questions I have, actually.
What has been the blessing of giving away as much as you have, especially as you've kind of talked about, like, greed and wanting to see the numbers and, you know, connected to the. To the trauma.
What is the fruit that you've experienced in your life by giving away as much as you have? And two, what are the types of things, as a businessman that you're looking at when you're giving and considering people to give to?
What are the types of things that stick out to you that are important to you, that you're looking for?
Just as, you know, we're sharing with our listeners, kind of like one businessman to another business man or woman?
[01:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, goodness. You know, Hannah, we could probably talk about this a good while, but I'll just say, yeah. The Lord blessed me of hearing an example of where a gentleman had been giving away half his income back when I was in my 30s, and I thought, golly, someday I hope I make enough income that I can afford to do that both emotionally and spiritually and financially. And so in 1998, I sold half my company at that juncture and eventually bought it back the half. But I started giving away half my income at that time.
And so it's been, you know, 27 years, I guess, You know, I've been blessed later on, I'll say, of really getting conviction of what I'm supposed to give to by the Lord. Prior to that, people say you need to be more, you know, pointed. And I said, well, I give to mainly Christian organizations and when the God wants me to be more specific, he's just going to get my attention. Well, he did. And, and so, you know, I see a lot of people in church give out a duty or obligation, and it just pains me.
I tend to want to tell them, what percent are you giving away? And say they're giving away 3%. I said, well, give away 1%, get to where you have enjoy. Give to where you're finding joy and different, where there's a difference and go down to a level where you have joy and then, then start, you increase. You'll want to start increasing your percentage and maybe get up to 10% or whatever.
But I just want, you know, he loves a cheerful giver and that's what I want for people and to be a cheerful giver. And it doesn't matter the percentage or the amount, but give, you know, give where you find joy and make a difference. So that's probably it in a nutshell.
[01:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Terry, thank you so much for again, just your generosity with your time and your wisdom this morning. I, I probably sound like a broken record to people who are listening to the episodes. Like, I'm just really expectant of how God is moving through these conversations, how he uses his spirit to deposit, you know, convictions or words or just how he strings those things along in so many different people's lives. I just am always expect and excited about these conversations and how he uses them for his glory in the hearts of other people. And yeah, just what a. Like, honestly, the word that keeps coming to mind is just what a delight to get to talk with you this morning and just so thankful for.
Yeah. Your yes to joining us.
[01:08:11] Speaker A: It was joyful for me.
You know, my whole deal is my whole prayer is, please, Lord, help me not be about me and be about you. Because just being about me doesn't change lives. Being about him changes lives. And you know, you, you kind of get it. You know, it's an overlap and all that, but, but it really doesn't work when it's about me. I mean, it doesn't change anything.
And so that's always my big prayer, is to hopefully be about him.
[01:08:49] Speaker B: Amen.
[01:08:50] Speaker A: Amen.
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